New York Districts?

[smistthegreat]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

So Andrew, I see your point that having two isolated groups within a district has an effect on whether the best teams make it to the DCMP. \snip

For those of you wondering if New York's two isolated groups have an appreciable performance gap, I did some rudimentary calculations. All OPR values were the maximum OPR values for this year, taken from Ed Law's spreadsheet.

Upstate Mean Max OPR: 25.1
Downstate Mean Max OPR: 15.9

Attached is a plot of the OPR distributions for each region. The distributions are shaped similarly, but upstate appears to have a +10 OPR advantage vs downstate.

Edit: Sorry for the huge photo. Here's a link to the image itself: http://i.imgur.com/jka78Nv.png

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

I just wanted to clear up a bit of a misconception here, it seems you have a total of 6 district events in this scenario. Assuming a typical district size of 40 teams, this would limit New York to 120 teams. A quick search tells me that 171 teams competed from New York this season, which would require nine 40 team events to give everyone two plays. My guess would be two of those go in the NYC/LI area and the other goes upstate somewhere.

Being 120ish of the 170ish are in rhe nyc li area there has to be 6 local events and 3 upstate.

Queens
Suffolk county
Nassau county
Brooklyn
Manhattan
Bronx
Chapequa (no one has mentioned all the lower state teams that are closer to nyc then upstate)



So one Albany one Rochester and one Syracuse?

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Being 120ish of the 170ish are in rhe nyc li area there has to be 6 local events and 3 upstate.

Queens
Suffolk county
Nassau county
Brooklyn
Manhattan
Bronx
Chapequa (no one has mentioned all the lower state teams that are closer to nyc then upstate)



So one Albany one Rochester and one Syracuse?

They are only 147 new york teams base on this http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...highlight=5030.
With about 50 of them being from upstate at least. If you look at all the teams attending just one regional, yes a lot are from NYC or Long Island because this year became harder to attend second regionals with the influx of out of state teams. So holding districts would help lots of teams but we can not just ignore that up past the city has a lot of teams that do pretty well each year.
Also basing upon upstate has stronger teams but that may be since most compete at 2 regionals so they have time to improve. We don't need to argue which area is better but agree upon that the district model would help out a lot of teams, if not all to show off how much they can do. As well as provide a team with well deserved awards.

My question now is how big of a gym is needed for an average sized district? Does anyone know how much seating and floor space is recommended?

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

My question now is how big of a gym is needed for an average sized district? Does anyone know how much seating and floor space is recommended?

According to the FRC District Planning Guide, page 21...

SITE SELECTION
GENERAL GUIDELINES
The District Planning Committee is responsible for selecting and contracting the event venues. By August 1st, the District must provide FIRST with a list of proposed dates and locations for events to be held in the District during the following year (subject to approval by FIRST). Listed below are general guidelines for district competition site requirements.
• Competition area: The designated playing area must be at least 80’ x 100’ with a ceiling height of 25’ minimum and un-obstructed viewing for an average of 50 spectators per team
• Pit area: A space of approximately 100 sq. ft. per team is needed in the pit area, preferably in the form of a 10’ x 10’ square
o Additional space is needed for aisles and pit administration/robot inspection facilities
o Each team pit will require 110 VAC drop and a 72”x30” table
o Access between the pit area and the playing field should be short, level, at least 6’ wide and preferably is not also utilized by spectators
o The pit area should have direct street loading access
• Judges’ meeting room: The judges meeting room should encompass 500-750
sq. ft. and be within easy walking distance of the field
• Chairman’s Award interview area: approx. 300 sq.ft. for interviews. This area should be quiet and free from distractions
• Dean’s List interview area: approx.. 300 sq. ft. for interviews. This area should be quiet and free from distractions
• Volunteer dining area: The volunteer dining area should provide seating
for 50 and space for food buffet service
• First aid area: The first aid area should be within convenient walking distance of the pit and competition field
• Machine shop: The inclusion of a machine shop is optional
• Parking: The site should have access to as much free parking as possible and plans should be made for overflow parking
• VIP lounge: If the District Leadership Entity decides to actively engage VIPs at district events, a VIP lounge with an unobstructed view of the field i
s recommended
• Media/Press Room: Optional

[AdamStockton]

If all of New York were to move to the district model (rather than 2 separate districts), the location of the district championship should alternate locations each year between the 3 major clusters of teams. This would allow the majority of teams to have the DCMP in their hometown area once every 3 years, and only having to make the long travel (6-8 hours) one of those 3 years. This might be a solution to the issue of some teams potentially having to travel 6-8+ hours each year to compete at the DCMP.

Aside from the speculation in this thread, has there been any official announcement or suggestion that New York will be moving to the district model soon?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

They are only 147 new york teams base on this http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...highlight=5030.
With about 50 of them being from upstate at least. If you look at all the teams attending just one regional, yes a lot are from NYC or Long Island because this year became harder to attend second regionals with the influx of out of state teams. So holding districts would help lots of teams but we can not just ignore that up past the city has a lot of teams that do pretty well each year.
Also basing upon upstate has stronger teams but that may be since most compete at 2 regionals so they have time to improve. We don't need to argue which area is better but agree upon that the district model would help out a lot of teams, if not all to show off how much they can do. As well as provide a team with well deserved awards.

My question now is how big of a gym is needed for an average sized district? Does anyone know how much seating and floor space is recommended?

Yes for the 2015 season there were 147 teams in NY, for some reason a number of the public information pages on the FIRST site include teams that either dropped out in the past or are rookies that did not complete registration.

For the PNW the guidelines are that the school has a gym with a standard sized HS basketball court which is 84 x 50 with seating for about 40 people per team.

The school also needs an auxiliary gym or a commons/lunch room that has aprox 150 sq ft per team plus space for pit admin and preferably inspection which is just a few hundred more sq ft. That 150 sq ft number is to account for isle space. Additional space may be needed based on the layout of the area, for example if there are lots of doors or other areas that can not be blocked or will be needed to store the mats, tables ect more space will be needed for the pits. In at least one instance the inspection station was in a wide area in the hall.

There also needs to be space for a practice field which is roughly another 1200 sq ft. In the PNW district we have had the practice field in the pits in a couple of instances. In others where the main gym is large enough the practice field was behind the pipe and drape that is behind the FTA desk.

Most schools do not have enough circuits in the area for the pits so there needs to be an area where a rental generator can be placed relatively closely.

For the events at HS in WA most of the schools that were used have ~1500 students but one of the events was in a school with ~900 students. In general the seating in the gym is relative to the student population.

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by Mr V

For the PNW the guidelines are that the school has a gym with a standard sized HS basketball court which is 84 x 50 with seating for about 40 people per team.

The school also needs an auxiliary gym or a commons/lunch room that has aprox 150 sq ft per team plus space for pit admin and preferably inspection which is just a few hundred more sq ft. That 150 sq ft number is to account for isle space. Additional space may be needed based on the layout of the area, for example if there are lots of doors or other areas that can not be blocked or will be needed to store the mats, tables ect more space will be needed for the pits. In at least one instance the inspection station was in a wide area in the hall.

There also needs to be space for a practice field which is roughly another 1200 sq ft. In the PNW district we have had the practice field in the pits in a couple of instances. In others where the main gym is large enough the practice field was behind the pipe and drape that is behind the FTA desk.

Most schools do not have enough circuits in the area for the pits so there needs to be an area where a rental generator can be placed relatively closely.

Thank you, we were wondering for the possibility of holding an off season or if New York went districts but I am not sure if we have enough space to run it.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

Thank you, we were wondering for the possibility of holding an off season or if New York went districts but I am not sure if we have enough space to run it.

For an off-season event you can usually get by with less space. Of course you'll still need the space for the field but the seating space can usually be less as can the pits since you don't really need full pit admin, inspection ect. You also do not need to have as many teams. The off-season events we have had in the PNW have been about 24 teams.

[Kevin Leonard]

So I was playing around with some numbers and ideas for a New York State District.
~150 teams with 2 events per team and 40 teams per event translates into about 8 district events for NY.
5 would need to be downstate while 3 would reasonably be upstate.

Upstate districts could be something like:
Finger Lakes District @RIT
Cornell/Ithaca District
Tech Valley District at RPI, or a local high school

Downstate I'm less knowledgeable about, but I feel like they should be spread out from the border between upstate and Downstate to further down Long Island.
Maybe something like:
White Plains District
Manhattan District
Brooklyn District
Freeport District
Hauppauge District

All of these locations are purely speculation, and I'm kind of just rambling, but I'd be excited for a New York district. I feel like districts is just the push NY needs to get back onto the main stage of FRC, like some of our teams used to be.

If there isn't a real conversation happening between upstate and Downstate regional planning committees, there definitely should be. One filled with understanding and compromise and a vision for what FIRST in New York could be.

[mistersands]

I'm actually convinced by some of the arguments in this thread.

Hold 9 district events.

3 in Rochester/Buffalo area.
1 in Capital region area.
5 in NYC / LI area (Bronx, Queens, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester)

Championships put in Binghamton. Even if a team can't make it to Championships, they have played in 2 events which is more than most get now. Most teams would be able to figure it out in the event they do get into Championships. Some NYC could travel together and split the cost of a bus.

I retract any objections I had. I think this would be a good thing for my team at least.

[AdamStockton]

Originally Posted by mistersands

Hold 9 district events.

3 in Rochester/Buffalo area.
1 in Capital region area.
5 in NYC / LI area (Bronx, Queens, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester)

Championships put in Binghamton.

This set of district/DCMP event locations looks pretty realistic to me. With these locations, the majority of teams would only need to stay overnight for a maximum of 1 event (unless they choose to travel).

For upstate teams, I could see district events located in the Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany areas. This way, each team has at least 2 districts within a reasonable distance to commute to and from each day.

I'm looking forward to seeing the district model come to New York, and with some strategic planning we should be able to make it work.

[PayneTrain]

If New York doesn't make its own move to districts by 2017 I imagine HQ will do it for them, in that a solution will come to pass that will allow them to supplement existing districts that will likely surround the state (MAR, NE, FIM, Ontario/Quebec, NCR, SE).

I know people would like there to be one district system in NY but there are existing examples of non-school sports existing in two independent systems (The Adirondack/Metro split in USA Swimming comes to mind). PA will also have two separate systems. Is there some practical hang up to this, or is it quasi-philosophical?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by mistersands

I'm actually convinced by some of the arguments in this thread.

Hold 9 district events.

3 in Rochester/Buffalo area.
1 in Capital region area.
5 in NYC / LI area (Bronx, Queens, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester)

Championships put in Binghamton. Even if a team can't make it to Championships, they have played in 2 events which is more than most get now. Most teams would be able to figure it out in the event they do get into Championships. Some NYC could travel together and split the cost of a bus.

I retract any objections I had. I think this would be a good thing for my team at least.

More smaller events is good from my perspective, that allows more teams to travel less and opens up more venues as suitable so yes 9 events would be good for the inaugural season. Have only 1 event week 1 to work out any issues then 2 events weeks 2-5. Have the DCMP week 6 to give the teams that do make it to CMP the extra time to prepare for that. Fact is it is easier to make the preparations for an in state trip that can probably be done in a school bus than to make the preparations for an out of state trip that would include either a charter bus or a plane ride.

Based on my conversations with the teams in the PNW that had traditionally only attended one event they mostly feel that the District system has had a positive effect on their team. Most feel that the students learn more and get more satisfaction from the increased playing time even if they do not qualify for DCMP.

[MrJohnston]

For those concerned about financial implications, here is my team's accounting with FIRST - simply copied from my TIMS account. Again, I can only show you the numbers, I can't tell you why they are the way they are.

Notes: Only the PNW Champs and St. Louis were over-night stays....Sorry about rotten formatting.


Invoice
FIRST
200 Bedford Street, Manchester, NH 03101-1103
(603)666-3906 (800)871-8326 Fax:603-206-2079
http://www.usfirst.org/

Printable Page
Team 948
Mr. Matt Johnston
Newport High School
4333 Factoria Blvd SE
Bellevue, WA 98006
USA

Signup Date Description Cost Registration Status Payments Balance
09/25/2014 PNW District - Glacier Peak Event
being held on March 06 - 08, $5,000.00 registered $5,000.00 $0.00

03/29/2015 Pacific Northwest District Championship
being held on April 01 - 04, $4,000.00 registered $4,000.00 $0.00

10/09/2014 PNW District - Auburn Event
being held on March 26 - 28, $0.00 registered $0.00 $0.00

04/05/2015 FIRST Championship
being held on April 22 - 25, $5,000.00 registered $5,000.00 $0.00

Total Due: $0.00 US funds
Make check payable to: FIRST
Attn: Finance
200 Bedford Street
Manchester, NH 03101 Send Purchase Order to Finance
Fax # is 603-206-2079
FIRST is a 501(c)3 organization.
Taxpayer Identification Number 22-2990908

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Originally Posted by AdamStockton

Aside from the speculation in this thread, has there been any official announcement or suggestion that New York will be moving to the district model soon?

No. I think it's inevitable that it happen at some point though so it is a good discussion to have here. Even though this is whole thread is speculation, it contains a good amount of data that could be useful in an actual decision.

I believe the decision to district has to be made X years in advance. Which means it is X years away from implementation.