The cheesecake runaway

[Irwin772]

It did also allow teams to add things they did not have weight, which is pretty much what happened with all the ramps.

[Joe G.]

I think that cheesecaking to the excessive extent which was common throughout this year can be solved mostly through smart game design. Here are just a few factors off the top of my head which made recycle rush uniquely suited for cheesecaking:

• An incredibly cluttered field, which made it hard to effectively utilize three scoring robots without getting in each other's way
• No defense, which necessitated that a third partner contribute to the alliance through means other than their drivetrain, generally a crucial, and very integral, element of third partners.
• Three distinct, moderate/high difficulty autonomous tasks (20pt stack, cans 1/2, cans 3/4), all with extremely high reward, which were very hard or impossible for a single team to do more than one.
• The ease through which canburgling could be done through an "auxillary" mechanism, rather than something more integral to the design
• The transport configuration rules, and the extreme flexability they gave teams in these types of "auxillary" mechanisms. (see tethered ramps)
• The extreme strategic importance of a task which didn't immediately draw attention to itself, and was not initially focused on by a majority of teams.
• The fact that this importance varied to an extreme degree with the level of play, to the point where designing entirely around can grabbing was likely not a smart choice for a low resource team
• The "arms race" nature of the task, with continual dramatic redesigns being a requirement to remain competitive.
• The fact that canburgling was autonomous and very fast, giving the cheesecaking team complete control over a number of variables they likely would not have otherwise.

All of these can easily be designed out of future games. Not necessarily saying that they're all bad things (in fact, I quite like some of them), but all together, they created the perfect storm of cheesecake this season.

[T^2]

You're all correct that the prevalence of cheesecake is not due to teams' being un-GP, but rather to the idiotically designed game they were forced to play. They did the best engineering they could with the restrictions they were given.

[pabeekm]

The rules setup and scoring dynamics definitely need to be reevaluated for the future in terms of how all partners of various types can contribute to an alliance effectively and fairly at all levels. I'm going to try not to say more than that because my opinions are too biased to be relevant. I just want to clear 1114 and 148's names in all this.

Originally Posted by Josho499#4613

I think it is not in the spirit of FIRST to ask other teams to change their whole robot with something they prepared earlier to ensure their own victory. It does not embody gracious professionalism, does not enforce the idea that FIRST is "more than just robots", and does not encourage problem solving skills or strategy, its more like "We are a great team so lets just basicly build two robots that make the perfect alliance and win championships".

We approached 1114 on Friday morning and asked if we could cheescake for them, not the other way around. Our main mechanism was suffering persistent unresolvable issues, and we knew based on our schedule that we'd be bottom ten and useless for elims. We also knew the biggest weakness of the 1114 148 alliance was canburgling, and that would be their priority for a 3rd robot, which, unfortunately, they wouldn't be able to snag the best of by their 2nd and 3rd picks. They needed cheesecake; we needed to change. So we decided on Thursday evening that we would offer up our drivetrain. When 1114 was hesitant because they could only work with something super light and tiny, we jumped on it. We were not at all pressured by them to do so; they thought we were nuts for wanting to do it. We were up Friday night cadding the new drivetrain, and raced all of Saturday to assemble it.

Our team took immense pride in the fact that we got so far out of proper analysis and sheer persistence. This was our decision; We were trying to play the hand we were dealt, and I apologize for how it came across. 1114 and 148 were nothing but professional, gracious, and AWESOME to work with (1114 has long been my favorite team in FRC).

Sorry for any typos or hasty wording; I'm on mobile and rushing to get this out because no blame should lie on the alliance captains for the "new" robot, because that was our team's initiative and decision.

[MrTechCenter]

Originally Posted by Josho499#4613

I think it is not in the spirit of FIRST to ask other teams to change their whole robot with something they prepared earlier to ensure their own victory. It does not embody gracious professionalism, does not enforce the idea that FIRST is "more than just robots", and does not encourage problem solving skills or strategy, its more like "We are a great team so lets just basicly build two robots that make the perfect alliance and win championships"

I know a few teams that are "cheesecakers" and always go around and ask teams on their pick list if they would be willing to let them modify their robot for elims before alliance selections. And I would argue that it does require solving skills and strategy because you're literally working on the clock to make the third robot as useful as possible to the alliance. I would rather have a cheesecaked bot on the field that has a purpose than having one on the field that's just forced to sit in the corner and stay out of the way of their alliance partners.

[Storcky]

In 2014, 3634 was picked by 2067 and 175 at our second district event. That was the first time our team had ever been picked in the history of the team. We spent lunch working with students and mentors of both other teams to revamp our drive system (among other minor adjustments) and wound up making it to the semifinals after playing a role we'd never thought of before due to the suggestion of the alliance captain.

The students came away from that so inspired that we immediately went back to the shop and (in the out of bag time) remade all of the changes we had done at the event and even added a few more. We went to our third district soon after and became alliance captain using the new strategies that the previous alliance had given us.

Going from almost last in our first event to alliance captain in our third, I feel like this is a perfect example of how cheesecake can be inspiration to the recipient.

[FIMAlumni]

Originally Posted by pabeekm

When 1114 was hesitant because they could only work with something super light and tiny, we jumped on it.

Just out of curiosity how much did those 4 harpoon launchers actually weigh? I'm really looking forward to a post by 1114 describing the engineering and strategic designs behind these.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by pabeekm

The rules setup and scoring dynamics definitely need to be reevaluated for the future in terms of how all partners of various types can contribute to an alliance effectively and fairly at all levels. I'm going to try not to say more than that because my opinions are too biased to be relevant. I just want to clear 1114 and 148's names in all this.


We approached 1114 on Friday morning and asked if we could cheescake for them, not the other way around. Our main mechanism was suffering persistent unresolvable issues, and we knew based on our schedule that we'd be bottom ten and useless for elims. We also knew the biggest weakness of the 1114 148 alliance was canburgling, and that would be their priority for a 3rd robot, which, unfortunately, they wouldn't be able to snag the best of by their 2nd and 3rd picks. They needed cheesecake; we needed to change. So we decided on Thursday evening that we would offer up our drivetrain. When 1114 was hesitant because they could only work with something super light and tiny, we jumped on it. We were not at all pressured by them to do so; they thought we were nuts for wanting to do it. We were up Friday night cadding the new drivetrain, and raced all of Saturday to assemble it.

Our team took immense pride in the fact that we got so far out of proper analysis and sheer persistence. This was our decision; We were trying to play the hand we were dealt, and I apologize for how it came across. 1114 and 148 were nothing but professional, gracious, and AWESOME to work with (1114 has long been my favorite team in FRC).

Sorry for any typos or hasty wording; I'm on mobile and rushing to get this out because no blame should lie on the alliance captains for the "new" robot, because that was our team's initiative and decision.

http://m.memegenerator.net/instance/...meSpan=AllTime

[Boltman]

Being Cheescaked was definitely a great experience.

I have no issue with it... obviously the ability to grab two RC's off wall in auto trumps most everything in Eliminations.

It can backfire though, our cheesecake arms were not fully working and remained fully extended in multiple matches and slow . In the ones they worked they were great. We lost by 2 QA in the SF. Very Frustrating. So many 6 point plays.. ugh!

In SD...then we fixed them (re-did all air lines) and used them in Elims..they were super fast and flawless.. still lost in QF.

Why I like it...

We would have been picked anyhow being in Top 20 of each regional, so being cheesecake for us ,was a great experience. It added to us a capability we could use. Watching the teams work during lunch was amazing and the transformation of the bot to loose weight in every way possible was very interesting.

It was not liked by everyone on our team actually half the team did not want the canburglar arms. I had to convince the team it was our best chance.

It builds teamwork between teams and when it works and makes a difference its cool.

We were almost cheesecaked last year too...they tried to add cheesy vision and we learned how to inbound the ball. They never could get the code to work in time.

Having cheesecake work is a great experience. I all for it. In fact next year we are going to be under weight so if cheesecaked we don't have to modify the rest.

Anything that is within the rules that adds to teamwork and innovation is good in my book.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Josho499#4613

For example, The top seed alliance of the Curie Division (1114 Simbotics and 148 Robowranglers) picked two other teams (1923 and 900), and didn't even play with them in playoffs. They faced off with just the two robots while the mech team from 1114 and 148 worked on attaching ridiculously good burglars to 1923. By the time these modifications were finished, it was the finals of Curie Division and they brought out their third team to take the division finals. After this, they set about disassembling the entire drive-base and structure of team 900, to attach four of 1114's ridiculous harpoon guns so that they would be in the weight limit. Now while I have no problem with 1114 and 148 having great mech teams that can build this machinery, I think it is not in the spirit of FIRST to ask other teams to change their whole robot with something they prepared earlier to ensure their own victory. It does not embody gracious professionalism, does not enforce the idea that FIRST is "more than just robots", and does not encourage problem solving skills or strategy, its more like "We are a great team so lets just basicly build two robots that make the perfect alliance and win championships".

I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. 1923 kids were involved in every single step of that burglar install. We were ecstatic to learn about the mechanisms 148 had to cheesecake us with, and their guidance was essential in making it successful. In fact, working alongside and learning from the greats like 148 and 1114 has motivated my kids more than anything in our 10-year history. They want to be on that level and now they got to see up-close how it's done.

We did not play in the earlier matches because we still needed to get it through inspection. The queue to inspect for elims was a little ridiculous (having to snake through the alliance pit was hard, too) and so it would not have been legal for us to play.

You might have been confused because 148 and 1923 both wear black. Our robot was constantly surrounded by 1923, with 148 over our shoulders helping make things happen. Don't judge a book by its cover.

Editing for another response (sorry, on mobile):

Originally Posted by blazingbronco18

If they made the decision to let their 3rd alliance member work on stacking from the human player station there would have been a different result. While I agree that FIRST must find a way to limit cheesecaking, cheesecaking does also present a unique element of strategy.

Emphasis mine. "Let"? The coaches and strategists for all three teams had lengthy discussion about HP loading for us. We normally use a tether ramp, but didn't want to make the mistake of tethering our ramp to 148's Robin if it would create a problem for their auton routine. My drive team was far less comfortable loading without a ramp. We tried it in some of our matches - it didn't work. We wasted totes 148 could have used for Robin.

In the end, we made a decision, as an alliance, not to HP load. Our job was: Burgle, get the cans in a good place, move the auton stack to the wall, and get out of the way. We all agreed that it would be the best role for us, and we executed as best we could.

We had a fantastic time getting to work with and learn from our partners - they're class act teams with amazing programs, and hopefully we'll be able to to capture a fraction of their magic to use from here on out.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I can only applaud teams for their ability to work within the rules and come up with both effective and creative cheesecake recipes for Recycle Rush. 1114 and 148 had two of the best, and I wish we had been able to see the harpoon guns on the field.

That being said, I think and hope that in future seasons cheesecake will not be allowed to this extent. Teams should be chosen based on their ability and fit within an alliance...not literally the fit of a premade mechanism within their chassis. Seeing less capable teams chosen over more capable teams solely to operate a foreign subsystem disincentivizes striving for excellence for a large part of the FRC population, and instead encourages things like making flyers advertising how easy it is to commandeer their robot.

Again, I do not mean to slight any cheesecake givers or receivers, as they have acted within the rules the same way I would have (and did). But there needs to be some sort of limit. Having a game that didn't depend so much on a single sub-1 second function would certainly help.

Jared pretty much nailed it here.

I don't think anyone is blaming the teams in question, or saying the experience cannot be inspirational for the teams involved. The teams evaluated the situation they were put in, and each reacted in a fashion that best suited their chances.

We obviously do not want to take away the experience of working closely with your alliance partners and great teams on how to improve your robot. That is a core part of inspiration and growth for many teams. However, when the point is passed where the core functionality of a robot changes due to "cheesecake," we create a disincentive for teams to try and accomplish everything they can during build season. I find no fault with 900's decision to build a new drive base for cheesecaking, a decision that certainly took a lot of guts and that most teams probably would have shied away from. However, I'm upset that we were playing a game where a drivebase with weight and space to attach mechanisms became a more attractive pick than 50 other teams in their subdivision. I find fault with a game where the best thing for a third alliance member to do is use a device from another team and then get out of the way.

[Josho499#4613]

So, in light of how much attention my post on cheesecake got, there are a few things i would like to clarify.
- I would like to retract the 'ridiculous' I put before talking about 1114's harpoons was not necessary and only came off as aggressive, and was not indended that way. "Impractical" was probably a better word, and if they were able to make them work on their own robot, congratulations.

[Nyxyxylyth]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I find no fault with [the] decision to build a new drive base for cheesecaking, a decision that certainly took a lot of guts and that most teams probably would have shied away from.

To me, it sounds a lot more like copying someone else's answers for an exam. I just couldn't throw away everything we'd worked on for months for the sake of winning.

Originally Posted by Nyxyxylyth

To me, it sounds a lot more like copying someone else's answers for an exam. I just couldn't throw away everything we'd worked on for months for the sake of winning.

It's not for the sake of winning, it's for the sake of the alliance. I always say that when you get to the elimination rounds, it's no longer just about your team - it's about the success of the entire alliance. If you're not putting in your all to achieve your alliance's goals (which should be inspiring your students through accomplishment and success [aka winning]), then you're doing a disservice to the other teams on your alliance.

Each team should ask not what their alliance can do for them, but what they can do for their alliance.

[blazingbronco18]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Emphasis mine. "Let"? The coaches and strategists for all three teams had lengthy discussion about HP loading for us. We normally use a tether ramp, but didn't want to make the mistake of tethering our ramp to 148's Robin if it would create a problem for their auton routine. My drive team was far less comfortable loading without a ramp. We tried it in some of our matches - it didn't work. We wasted totes 148 could have used for Robin.

In the end, we made a decision, as an alliance, not to HP load. Our job was: Burgle, get the cans in a good place, move the auton stack to the wall, and get out of the way. We all agreed that it would be the best role for us, and we executed as best we could.

We had a fantastic time getting to work with and learn from our partners - they're class act teams with amazing programs, and hopefully we'll be able to to capture a fraction of their magic to use from here on out.

First of all congratulations on advancing to the Einstein Semifinals. The real question here is did Robin use all the totes from the human player station? If they did then I agree, but if there were some totes leftover that weren't utilized, would there have been any negatives from attempting to score any extra totes that Robin didn't use?