Petition for Better Championship Video

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Twitch - Non-Gaming Content Flagging. On twitch, viewers can flag a stream as "non-gaming content", after enough flags, the account is banned for 24 hours automatically with no recourse for the streamer (at least not in a timely enough manner to be useful).

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...oteStacker1683

Seems legit

This game is actually extremely fun.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

As someone experienced with streaming FRC events with YouTube and Twitch, there are a few important problems with both services...

YouTube - Audio Copyright Flagging. Basically any FRC event streamed to YouTube has to have the audio completely muted. We attempted using it to stream a District last year and had our videos flagged every few minutes even though the feed only picked up audio from the announcers mic (it picked up the music from ambient sound and even though you could barely hear it, YouTube picked it up).

Twitch - Non-Gaming Content Flagging. On twitch, viewers can flag a stream as "non-gaming content", after enough flags, the account is banned for 24 hours automatically with no recourse for the streamer (at least not in a timely enough manner to be useful).

This season we ended up using www.hitbox.tv to stream the last part of our district, it's basically a twitch clone with fewer restrictions, the only downside being the stream has to be refreshed every 4 hours or so (length limits).

Both Florida events were webcasted on YT with no problems playing the music. And I know quite a few Regionals were streamed on Twitch and never got flagged. If I remember correctly, FIRST was the game it was listed under too; so Twitch already recognizes it as "gaming content".

Plus, FRC Top 25 and FRC GameSense both run on Twitch w/o a problem.

[Louis_]

Originally Posted by dcarr

This is why an official arrangement would help - for example, Major League Hacking, the organization that runs 100+ collegiate hackathons around the world every year, has an official deal to stream closing ceremonies and other content with Twtich, and they've been featured on the homepage numerous times.

If FIRST is already engaging in an official capacity with Livestream, that's a good step, but I saw no evidence of it at Championship this year. Twitch would be well poised to handle this kind of traffic and they've already shown an interest in promoting STEM events like Hackathons.

NE FIRST broadcasted all their events on Twitch.

[Metonym]

There is clearly a need for better video, but you really need to understand how much work it takes to run a complex video system at any competition.

Volunteers are the reason PNW media is so great. We own the show because we have kids that are interested in the game and are innovative in how they want to present the game. Our most basic setup can survive with 3 people minimum. We are at our best with 15 people running the entire livestream, posting to social media, and making a highlight reel (my baby ). The students/adults need to be trained every event we go to, but we survive by having a few dedicated volunteers at every event to keep our quality standards.


From what I learned this weekend, PNW is still by far the most volunteer driven, but other areas like MAR and IN seem to be catching up. Next year I hope to see the bar raised even more for community A/V teams by all areas (if we all still stick with FIRST after this boring year /s). NE contacts our there A/V (or something like that. I didn't get the whole story.) Video quality is good, but audio was really bad at times, so an easy fix next year. FIRST needs to realize how hard it becomes for teams to get the community excited about their competition season when there aren't any good video sources for people to watch. 1678 has provided great full field views in the past, but they really can't compete with district events that being much higher quality productions.

Indiana should have an interesting jump in quality when I come over there with my knowledge from working on the PNW A/V crew so many times as one of the serial volunteers (check the sig).

I'm sorry if this makes no sense. I'm super dead from champs.

Something something my own opinions.

[BigJ]

Re: Twitch "non-gaming" problems, as a Magic: the Gathering player (which is one of the ~15-20 consistently highest watched games at least on weekends), I think you could argue that FRC is as much a game as cardboard Magic, even without a specific exemption.

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by dodar

Both Florida events were webcasted on YT with no problems playing the music. And I know quite a few Regionals were streamed on Twitch and never got flagged. If I remember correctly, FIRST was the game it was listed under too; so Twitch already recognizes it as "gaming content".

Plus, FRC Top 25 and FRC GameSense both run on Twitch w/o a problem.

Again, its not an issue of if Twitch recognizes it, it's the Twitch users. In the case of our stream, we picked up several viewers that were not familiar with FIRST and flagged the stream enough times to get it taken down. It's luck basically, you have to hope people outside the FIRST community don't come across the stream.

In the case of YouTube, the last time we attempted to stream to it was over a year ago so it's possible that things have changed. I also recall there was a way to suppress copyright flags, but you had to be watching it constantly because if you didn't click the pop-up fast enough it would pull down the stream. Between that and the configuration hassles with YT streams we opted to just use Twitch until that too started causing issues.


I will say though, streaming events would be a whole lot easier for event organizers if FIRST would make some arrangement with a decent streaming service and share the details with everyone. Our event planning team attempted on several occasions to get input from FIRST on issues like copyrighted material and broadcasting standards and were met repeatedly with "you're on your own".

[dodar]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Again, its not an issue of if Twitch recognizes it, it's the Twitch users. In the case of our stream, we picked up several viewers that were not familiar with FIRST and flagged the stream enough times to get it taken down. It's luck basically, you have to hope people outside the FIRST community don't come across the stream.

In the case of YouTube, the last time we attempted to stream to it was over a year ago so it's possible that things have changed. I also recall there was a way to suppress copyright flags, but you had to be watching it constantly because if you didn't click the pop-up fast enough it would pull down the stream. Between that and the configuration hassles with YT streams we opted to just use Twitch until that too started causing issues.

If Twitch recognizes it as a game, then you need something like double the amount of flags to get taken down. So, either you were flag spammed by a few people(which Twitch should recognize and just ignore) or you didnt list the stream under the right tag.

[Lil' Lavery]

I love twitch. I watch content there all the time, and occasionally stream there. That being said, I want FIRST on YouTube.

Twitch is awesome, but it services a niche community. While there's obviously a fair deal of crossover between FRC and that community, and all of FRC could perhaps become a niche that Twitch services, it's not the general public. YouTube is the general public. Everyone is familiar with YouTube. Smartphones all come with YouTube apps. Less school and workplace filters block YouTube than Twitch (though we'll never find any streaming site that's is never blocked). Grandma knows how to use YouTube.

This is why MAR broadcasts on YouTube, and I agree with the decision they reached.

[Alex Webber]

As with the above, I think YouTube would be great for FIRST with a potential to engage way more users than Twitch. Twitch is nice, you can chat in real time.

YouTube would be great for FIRST

[Metonym]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I love twitch. I watch content there all the time, and occasionally stream there. That being said, I want FIRST on YouTube.

Twitch is awesome, but it services a niche community. While there's obviously a fair deal of crossover between FRC and that community, and all of FRC could perhaps become a niche that Twitch services, it's not the general public. YouTube is the general public. Everyone is familiar with YouTube. Smartphones all come with YouTube apps. Less school and workplace filters block YouTube than Twitch (though we'll never find any streaming site that's is never blocked). Grandma knows how to use YouTube.

This is why MAR broadcasts on YouTube, and I agree with the decision they reached.

Does MAR still stream audio? Cause that was why PNW ditched the idea of using YouTube.

MAR streams good quality video, but if they allow audio to be lost for the purpose of using a more "accessible" service then they are moving in the wrong direction. Audio is key to helping viewers understand the game, otherwise you alienate a large part of your audience. Grandma won't understand the game when people are just stacking some totes or shooting some balls without the commentary of the GA explaining those essential parts of the game.

Also most schools would probably block YouTube. At least most schools in my area do.

[spydan]

Originally Posted by Metonym

Does MAR still stream audio? Cause that was why PNW ditched the idea of using YouTube.

MAR streams good quality video, but if they allow audio to be lost for the purpose of using a more "accessible" service then they are moving in the wrong direction. Audio is key to helping viewers understand the game, otherwise you alienate a large part of your audience. Grandma won't understand the game when people are just stacking some totes or shooting some balls without the commentary of the GA explaining those essential parts of the game.

Also most schools would probably block YouTube. At least most schools in my area do.

MAR streams the audio from the Game Announcer, Emcee, and game sounds. The only thing that is bypassed is music from the DJ because of copyright restrictions on YouTube. The microphones are mixed together first and brought into the streaming computer, then an aux output from that mixer goes to the DJ to be mixed with the music and be played over the venue speakers

[Louis_]

Originally Posted by Alex Webber

As with the above, I think YouTube would be great for FIRST with a potential to engage way more users than Twitch. Twitch is nice, you can chat in real time.

YouTube would be great for FIRST

The only issue with Twitch is the ~15 second delay. It was better when it was <3 seconds.

[Kevin Leonard]

If FIRST changes nothing else for 2016, it should be this.
Heck, if the 2017 Chumpionships had awesome quality streams and archives, I might even forgive them for destroying the bedrock of my favorite competitive activity.

[pmangels17]

They also need to make sure that they help event planners to ensure that they have good quality, high-bandwidth internet access in order to provide good streams. I know that at NYC the stream had a ton of problems because the venue charged an outrageous amount of money for good internet, so the team that volunteered to stream the event basically ran the whole thing on dial-up. Somehow we need to provide better internet services to facilitate good streaming too.

[Deetman]

Originally Posted by Metonym

Does MAR still stream audio?

As Dan said above, MAR streams out emcee, game announcer, game sounds and any additional microphones used. The setup has changed since Dan saw it last, but all of our audio goes in to our DJ's audio mixer and then we get one feed from them without any copyrighted music.

Sean definitely nailed the reasons for YouTube... Being able to explain to grandparents over the phone how to watch the event their grandchild is participating is huge. Good luck explaining twitch or livestream or any other streaming service to someone less technically inclined over the phone. Everyone knows how to use YouTube.

There is much more that can be posted on the complexities of webcasting events, but the first and primary for championships is bandwidth. To run 8 streams simultaneously at 720p, you are looking at 16Mbps minimum upload and that is without any overhead and minimum quality settings. Ideally you'd be looking at around 40Mbps upload to comfortably stream 8 720p streams at high quality, which may not even be available from the venue. Assuming that NASA is running the streams through a satellite uplink, I highly doubt that their uplink is capable of sustaining 40Mbps. This doesn't even touch on the reliability required for it and ignores other internet requirements at the venue for the event.