900's Championship Cheesecaking Chronicles

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

* It also begs the question, with all the emphasis and prestige of winning, does 900 now get to claim they reached Einstein? I suppose. It just seems strange to say so as the team finished in 75th place out of 76 teams and didn't enter into a single playoff match.

They absolutely reached Einstein. To me it seems strange that anyone would even question that.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Karthik

They absolutely reached Einstein. To me it seems strange that anyone would even question that.

Something about sticks, stones, and blue banners...

[JohnM]

Since you guys have one harpoon left, do you guys happen to have the CAD files for it? If so would you guys be willing to share them at all? They would be pretty interesting to look at. Anywise, thanks.

[jaustinpage]

Originally Posted by JohnM

Since you guys have one harpoon left, do you guys happen to have the CAD files for it? If so would you guys be willing to share them at all? They would be pretty interesting to look at. Anywise, thanks.

That is a 1114 question, it would be presumptuous of me to post something like that. (Although, in years past, 1114 has posted cad here: http://www.simbotics.org/resources/cad)

[MrJohnston]

I would like to thank you, Karthik, for your lovely and quite gracious personal message.

I know our team will never have as many blue banners as your team nor will we ever build robots as glorious as yours. That does not, however, mean that you have any special authority or some monopoly on integrity.

The question as to whether or not you should have to three robots on a three-team alliance is a good one for discussion. I get it: you think that it's okay to sit the third robot on the sidelines if it helps your team to win. I don't. We disagree. Deal with it.

I do not have any disrespect for your alliance partners and I'm sorry if it came out that way.

[pabeekm]

Those who can, how about we all step back for a sec on the jabbing back and forth?

It’s only been two days, everyone needs some time to decompress and of course talk. Let’s just try to limit the crossfire here, and respect everyone’s need to vent; the past week has been intense for all of us. Let’s try not to drag that out.

Please don’t fight!

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by pabeekm

Those who can, how about we all step back for a sec on the jabbing back and forth?

It’s only been two days, everyone needs some time to decompress and of course talk. Let’s just try to limit the crossfire here, and respect everyone’s need to vent; the past week has been intense for all of us. Let’s try not to drag that out.

Please don’t fight!

You're absolutely right. As a contributor to the negativity here, I apologize. This thread should be to discuss Team 900's journey at the Championship. Sorry that I derailed the topic. I'm going to do what I should have done long ago, which is to ignore the negativity and celebrate the positivity. Thanks for the reminder.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Karthik

You're absolutely right. As a contributor to the negativity here, I apologize. This thread should be to discuss Team 900's journey at the Championship. Sorry that I derailed the topic.

Same. It's done.

900, you rock. We love y'all. Sorry this junk ended up in a thread about your amazing story.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Same. It's done.

900, you rock. We love y'all. Sorry this junk ended up in a thread about your amazing story.

Awww... We love y'all too.

[MrJohnston]

I made my point and went too far... and worded things less delicately than I should have. For that I apologize. I will consider getting so sleep before posting more.

[steelerborn]

Just would like to say that I think that all 4 members of an alliance (no matter the amount of play time) get to share in the winnings.

I have a lot of respect 148 (one of my favorite teams), 1114, 1923, and 900. Karthik and Libby are both great mentors that do so much for their team and the FIRST community.

Watching that last semi-final match was insane I was on the edge of my seat. I think MrJohnston also made some points that I feel are correct. Recycle Rush at its core was a game of consistency. I am personally not a fan of telling robots to sit and just wait for the end of the game (especially since this year there was no defense, or endgame. Finding a job was more challenging).

Just food for thought if 1923 had put up 1 tote in teleop, in each SF match, you would have a different set of world champions right now. That is just one tote a match, I would trust almost any team this year with that task. Even if they spent the whole match doing just that 1 tote. It still is a contribution that would have made a huge difference. And after watching 1923 this year I am sure they could have done this easily.

In the end it was just a poor strategy decision, but from reading all of the posts from 900, 1923, and 1114 it sounds like the kids had a blast being there, learning from some great teams, and were able to make some great memories which is what FIRST is all about. Great job all around

[meg]

Originally Posted by Chinmay

Agreed, it is a shared setup, and you should discuss with 1114. Make sure not to completely defer to them, as I think your colleague may have implied in his post. It is not presumptuous of him to own that work. He worked hard on it, and it is as much your as theirs.

Clearly you have never met anyone on our team . We are some of the most stubborn people I've ever met. Makes for some fascinating team dynamics! The statement was definitely to respect 1114's interest in the project as well.

Originally Posted by steelerborn

Just food for thought if 1923 had put up 1 tote in teleop, in each SF match, you would have a different set of world champions right now. That is just one tote a match, I would trust almost any team this year with that task. Even if they spent the whole match doing just that 1 tote. It still is a contribution that would have made a huge difference. And after watching 1923 this year I am sure they could have done this easily.

In the end it was just a poor strategy decision, but from reading all of the posts from 900, 1923, and 1114 it sounds like the kids had a blast being there, learning from some great teams, and were able to make some great memories which is what FIRST is all about. Great job all around

I disagree with this. As 1923 has already said, they were less reliable loading their robot without their ramp (which they couldn't have and can burgle). Since 148 got nearly all of the bins stacked from the HP station, it is definitely possible that the totes falling sideways out of the feeder station trying to feed them to 1923 would have actually decreased the number available to 148 and would have meant less points for the alliance. With the close quarters and not being able to see, there was also a higher risk of knocking over stacks. As has been previously said by the teams, the alliances discussed the possibility of having 1923 stack and decided as a group that it was a higher risk than they were willing to take. I have the utmost respect for 1923 for being able to make that decision and put the needs of the alliance above their desire to stack themselves

[steelerborn]

Originally Posted by meg

I disagree with this. As 1923 has already said, they were less reliable loading their robot without their ramp (which they couldn't have and can burgle). Since 148 got nearly all of the bins stacked from the HP station, it is definitely possible that the totes falling sideways out of the feeder station trying to feed them to 1923 would have actually decreased the number available to 148 and would have meant less points for the alliance. With the close quarters and not being able to see, there was also a higher risk of knocking over stacks. As has been previously said by the teams, the alliances discussed the possibility of having 1923 stack and decided as a group that it was a higher risk than they were willing to take. I have the utmost respect for 1923 for being able to make that decision and put the needs of the alliance above their desire to stack themselves

I never said that the strategy was not decided as a group. I am sure 900, 1923, 1114, and 148 all had long discussions about the strategy together especially with 900 getting up and running with the cheesecake. All the teams I know have great drivers, students, and mentors

I was saying that no stack needed to be made, even if they just dropped in one tote (from the other feeder station, opposite of Robin) and pushed it up onto the scoring platform (even if it was sideways). That would have been all they needed in the match. I think 148 would have been okay with having just one tote less. It was hard to tell but did they ever drain the human stations by themselves? And I know that it is easy to see what could have happened once the event is done and over with. But I was just showing how such a small strategical decision could have a big outcome.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by steelerborn

Watching that last semi-final match was insane I was on the edge of my seat. I think MrJohnston also made some points that I feel are correct. Recycle Rush at its core was a game of consistency. I am personally not a fan of telling robots to sit and just wait for the end of the game (especially since this year there was no defense, or endgame. Finding a job was more challenging).

This was my first year getting to know FRC and seeing what it was all about so my understanding of past years may be a bit foggy. I've talked with countless teams at several events this year and have heard stories from all sides. I can understand where you're coming from with a distaste for teams being told to sit on the sideline. I remember one team in particular I worked with struggled early on. It was heartbreaking to see how down the team was about being told to stay out of the way during qualification rounds. It was also very gratifying to see the difference in their faces as we fixed issues they were having and had them climbing the charts and being a larger part of their team's success.

But, that's apples to oranges. None of the teams in this thread feel pushed aside. In fact, it's strange to me to suggest a can burglar staying out of the way the rest of the match isn't an integral part of the team. The consensus agrees the most important part of this year's strategy was the can race. If we agree this is true, the most important part of a team's success is the robot grabbing the cans. Even if they're idle the rest of the match, they play the most important role on the team. How is this fundamentally different than a robot with the sole purpose to go disrupt the other team's strong robot? The amount of time being active doesn't change the importance of a robot nor that team's role in decision making. Why are we acting as if it does?

I think we're losing something in all of this debate. FRC isn't about robots. You can gather the purpose behind FIRST from Dean's promos. It's about inspiring the next generation to find a higher purpose than idolizing shooting a ball through a net. Too many of us forget there's more to being an engineer than putting together an amazing machine. The soft skills some of these kids are showing are just as incredible as the machines they put together. Are we really preparing them for the real world if we penalize using soft skills to collaborate? We're quick to credit 1114 for designing half the robot. We're slow to recognize 900 for putting together a base that could accept that robot and stepping out of an engineer's comfort zone to work with peers. We're ignoring the team was able to successfully network with their peers, their competition, and staff to come together towards a common goal. Isn't developing those skills a key component to what FIRST is about?

One of the teams I worked with this past weekend was a second pick at their regional. If you look at the three teams, it's not difficult to see which robots were handling the event. Their robot wasn't a strong robot at the competition. But, that's not all there is to the event. They worked with their alliance to develop a strategy that won. At worlds, they weren't frustrated about that experience. They were proud of their banner and one of the more solid teams I worked with. When obstacles came into their path, they were telling their mentor how they were going to move forward. They maintained relationships with the teams from their regional and used these relationships to help get through their current obstacle. With this, they spread their network to include other teams all while showing poise that left me in awe. Their networking skills helped them be selected to elimination rounds at worlds. They're leaving multiple events with new friends and new resources they can use to build their knowledge and excitement. Isn't that at the core of what FIRST is all about?

[cglrcng]

Reading back to the ramps thread....
______________________________________

Al Skierkiewicz
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,327


Re: Ramps

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I guess this is really an issue that revolves around the one rule that is absent this season and that is the sizing rule. In an indirect way, it also involves what we inspect as ROBOT. This season, there is no size restriction other than Transport Configuration. We have to inspect everything but it must fit inside the Transport Configuration at some point. (Which by the way is the configuration that all robots must be in when moving from pit to field and back.) If your robot is an unlimited size, it still needs to be one and only one, ROBOT. Teams that choose to have a separate part of the robot that is either passive or active, must still show that there is only one robot (See R1 below) on the field for each team. While others are trying to point to a specific rule, we must consider that the manual is something that needs to be taken as a whole. Some sections speak to robot size, some to position, some to starting position but overall everyone of them speak about THE ROBOT. As a small sample...

R1 A Team must submit their ROBOT for Inspection. The ROBOT must be built by the FRC Team to perform specific tasks when competing in RECYCLE RUSH. The ROBOT must include all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, and movement. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play RECYCLE RUSH (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD, or a ROBOT designed to play a different game does not satisfy this definition).

or

R3 The ROBOT must satisfy the following size constraints:
A. during a MATCH, the ROBOT height may not exceed 78 in.
B. the ROBOT must be able to be arranged into a TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION with dimensions which do not exceed 28
in. wide, 42 in. long, and 78 in. tall.

Please note that these use the singular rather than "a" showing a clear intention that each team build and use just one robot. I believe that tethers, whether containing power or simply passive ropes, satisfies the one robot of unlimited size.
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
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I don't have issues or an issue with what happened in the end (as I knew when the GDC re-evaluated that Q&A answer and made the rules changes they did that is was bound to happen that many would end up competing w/ much that were not what they actually originally designed and built during build season, but what others actually designed later, but am still attempting to understand how we go from building THE ROBOT (and ENTERING ONLY 1 ROBOT in competition)...to competing with a completely different robot on Einstein Field in less than 3 days and still be in compliance w/ said rules as listed above and not violate either the weight or max. cost issues. (Unless THE ROBOT entered was completely disassembled into the COTS condition pre-assembly...It was still a robot (and the new ROBOT is also a robot), albeit maybe not a working robot at the time. Whatever mass is left assembled, should have counted toward total weight in my opinion is all).

Theoretically then, each match could be (if reinspected between every match of course), played with a completely different robot by each team...Soon, the pit spaces will need to each be enlarged to accomodate a whole hardware store of COTS parts & raw materials each.

And Each Team, will also need a place to park their personal machine shop trailer next to their pit also. We'll look like NASCAR soon enough!


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BTW...Congrat's to ALL the participants of a great Championships...Especially to the WINNERS / FINALISTS! And all the Award winners too.