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View Poll Results: What amount of Cheesecake should be allowed
No Cheesecake 13 3.21%
Replacements/spare parts 60 14.81%
Small Upgrades 137 33.83%
Large Upgrades 51 12.59%
New Component 78 19.26%
New Robot 66 16.30%
Voters: 405. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 27-04-2015, 21:45
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

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Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes View Post

...

If every team would build within their means and analyze the game well, then I bet most of the "issues" surrounding cheesecake would vanish.
I don't think it will ever vanish. In this case, I think there have been teams who enjoyed challenging themselves and pushing the envelop.

Jane
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Unread 27-04-2015, 22:35
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

I'm fine with teams giving out as much sugar and eggs and cream cheese as they want, and even helping a receiving team to bake it into a wheel of delicious dessert. But I've reached a position where I think giving an entire homemade cheesecake is something that should be discouraged.

(A standardized commercial cheesecake is another matter. If every team has the opportunity to buy -- or be given -- one, then I have no problem with it. But the analogy terminology shorthand we're using here starts to break down when trying to discuss "COTS cheesecake".)
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Unread 28-04-2015, 13:25
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

What do people considered small/large components? 1678 can theft auto proved to be useful for them considering they were in the cheesecake factory.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 13:39
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

In general, I'd say i'm pro-cheesecake. Mainly because I think it embodies (to a degree) what FIRST is all about. In doing this, it is an opportunity to learn from top-caliber teams in a competition environment. In the instances I saw, it wasn't about a powerhouse number one seed saying "your robot belongs to us, hand it over and let us do this our way." It was about using what an alliance partner can bring to the table and working together to make a new creative strategy, even if it was just strapping on a pole that kicked a can over. From my perspective, the takeaways were great. In the teams we worked with, we got to learn about how they work, and got a few tips on making quick parts. I am definitely interested in seeing how next years game could incorporate things like this.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:14
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

I miss the 6 week build season.



Where the challenge was designing, building, and testing robots in such a short time period.
Examples such as cheesecaking and the 30 lb allowance no longer makes a 6 week build season worth anything meaningful. The allowance initially started, IIRC, due to teams not having access to their shops (not able to work) due to weather conditions. It seems to have just continued since that time.

FRC is looking more and more like the VEX challenge. If that's the case, I hope FIRST makes some changes in the near future, so that I can eat right, sleep right, and not put my personal life on hold for 2 months not including the competitions we attend.
The time we gave up to be competitively ready for a week 1 event, went out the door 3 weeks later.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:24
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 View Post
I miss the 6 week build season.



Where the challenge was designing, building, and testing robots in such a short time period.
Examples such as cheesecaking and the 30 lb allowance no longer makes a 6 week build season worth anything meaningful. The allowance initially started, IIRC, due to teams not having access to their shops (not able to work) due to weather conditions. It seems to have just continued since that time.

FRC is looking more and more like the VEX challenge. If that's the case, I hope FIRST makes some changes in the near future, so that I can eat right, sleep right, and not put my personal life on hold for 2 months not including the competitions we attend.
The time we gave up to be competitively ready for a week 1 event, went out the door 3 weeks later.
What are your thoughts on FIRST adopting a much longer build term or even going year round like VEX?
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:26
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

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Originally Posted by connor.worley View Post
What are your thoughts on FIRST adopting a much longer build term or even going year round like VEX?
Do it. Get rid of bag and tag. Teams already build multiple robots to subvert bag and tag. By removing it, you enable lower resource teams to compete at higher levels easier.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:29
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

It has been an interesting few days following the Championships….. Many thoughts and emotions, and reading these threads has, I can only guess, caused many of us, me included, to start writing responses, and then just deleting them…..

Well, for good or bad, here goes one that did not get deleted.

A couple points of clarification;

- I am new to the program, this being the second year of involvement for our daughter. From the first event that we attended a couple of years ago during a school field trip with our youngest, I was hooked. I think it is a great program. I only have perspective from my limited involvement.
- If it comes across that I am saying anything negative about the Teams that collaborated in this ‘Cheesecake Factory’ event, please note, I am not blaming Teams, I am only expressing my opinion about the structure that allowed such activity.

Also, let me state that this is only my opinion, not the opinion of the Team I am associated with, or anyone else, just mine….

Witnessing this activity reminded me of some experiences I had with another sport, and there are some similarities, and feelings. I just thought I would share my past experience. You can take it for what it is worth….

I have been involved with a race team and as a Team we worked very hard to compete, and with some luck and A LOT of hard, hard work and dedication by every member of our Team, we were able to compete at the highest level in our sport. Vying for the World Championship in a year-long battle that involved racing all over this great country of ours. It was an amazing experience, and one I will remember forever for the good and the not so good, for it all contributes in making experiences what they are.

We had resources, ie. $$$’s and a dedicated crew. We had the burning desire to be the best, and we did everything we could to make our Team as good as it could be. We did not have the same $$$’s as the top Teams, and we had not been in the sport as long as some of them, but we had desire and determination….. You cannot just make those things, or buy them…..

We had been steadily building our program, getting more competitive. We decided that we would make a run at seeing what we could do, and set out to compete as if we were running for the World Championship, to see how we stacked up against the best of the best. We started out the year reaching the Finals our first seven races, winning three of them. We were on a roll…… As the year progressed, we were leading the points chase, staying ahead of our competition….. People started talking about ‘upsets’ as we could be in a position to unseat a 4-time Champion..... We just kept our heads down and worked hard. Then, interesting things started to happen…….

Similarly to FIRST, we had an Eliminations format when it came to race day. Depending on the event, there were either 8 or 16 Qualifiers who raced on Sunday. It was true eliminations, you lost, you were on the trailer, no averages, no best of two or three, nothing….. Just two race teams, a race track and +/- 5.30 seconds to decide who was moving on…..

Now to the interesting things…… As the season began to wind down, we were still leading the points chase. We started seeing the Crew Chief from the rival Team talking with other Teams, especially the Teams that were in the lower qualified positions. Hmmmm……. Here we are qualified #1 or #2, and he is talking to the two lowest qualified Teams, the ones we would likely be racing 1st Round. If we were to lose early in Eliminations, our points total would take a hit. We worked harder….. Then it became more than just talking, it became replacement of key components, first a supercharger, then a complete motor, a tune-up…… Teams that barely qualified are now having another Team replace their complete drive-train and being told how to run their car, with the sole purpose to beat us…..

It was all within the rules…… Teams would help other teams with parts and crew when they needed it, that was something I always enjoyed, was helping others. But, when it got to the point that a Team was taking over another Team, in an effort to beat someone else, I thought that crossed a line. In the middle of all of this were all the other teams. Teams that worked hard, put everything they had into their operations and they competed at their best. They might have been a mid to high placed Team, but they got run over by the steam rollers of the Top Teams, and the newly created bottom Team with a bunch of new go-fast parts, and knowledge that was only given on a need to know basis……

So, how did it all end? We ended up losing the World Championship by one Round of racing. We crisscrossed the country, went to 23 different races, had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows…… It was fantastic, and I will remember it forever…… Likewise, I will remember experiencing activities that I thought were a detriment to the sport that I loved…..

When Mega-teams could out spend, and out work all of the others, it was one thing. We worked hard and did what we could with what we had to compete with them. But when it started to become Mega-team 1, and Mega-team 1 creating Mega-team Jr., it was dang, how many times do we have to beat them???? Often times Mega-team Jr. was extatic at given the shot to compete at a higher level. When it worked, they ran quicker and faster than they had ever gone, and often quicker and faster than they would ever go. Once the parts were taken back, they were where they were….. Maybe it was a good experience for them? They got to run with the big dogs…… Maybe it will fuel them to work harder, to dig deep, and figure out how to make their Team better, figure out how to become a Top Team…… Who knows…..

What I do know is, there was no shortage of Teams who were willing to scrap their program, yank their motor out and try to covet the attention of those who had the go-fast parts, and the knowledge……

Was there any redeeming value in all this activity? That can be debated for all eternity…… I am not claiming to know the answers…… But in my opinion, the redeeming value benefitted a very few, and not the program as a whole.

The cheesecake activity that we witnessed this weekend reminded me of what we experienced that year with our race Team, and our quest to see how we stacked up against the best of the best…… The memories were not the good ones, and I would hope that similar memories are few and far between as we continue this great journey in FIRST…..
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:37
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
Do it. Get rid of bag and tag. Teams already build multiple robots to subvert bag and tag. By removing it, you enable lower resource teams to compete at higher levels easier.
Interesting thought. Many (most?) teams compete at multiple regionals and districts (particularly the latter). So extending the build season won't really give late competing teams an advantage--the teams competing earlier will get an opportunity to learn from their experience.

Look at the average scores and OPRs this season. Some teams had remarkable turnarounds in the season. 195 and 1671 are excellent examples of teams that went to the elite level by working after their first regional. Shouldn't we encourage students to learn from their experiences and then apply those lessons?
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:30
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

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Originally Posted by connor.worley View Post
What are your thoughts on FIRST adopting a much longer build term or even going year round like VEX?
Our program is heavily involved in both VEX and FRC as you know.
We enjoy both very very much.
My wish is that FIRST either completely do one or the other and get rid of the in-between. The rules as it exists benefit some and not all. Without getting into details, it puts us at a disadvantage because of the traveling we need to do in order to compete. It also puts teams that only have the time to do just 1 robot at a huge disadvantage as well, if your robot is stuck in a bag, crated away from home once shipped to the initial event.

The old argument to not extending the build season was not to burnout mentors.
To me, that no longer holds valid.
The intensity of the program is now almost 4 months, if you expect to be competitive at the level of the elite teams that consistently make Einstein, generally speaking.
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Last edited by waialua359 : 28-04-2015 at 15:33.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 16:02
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by connor.worley View Post
What are your thoughts on FIRST adopting a much longer build term or even going year round like VEX?
As far as I'm concerned the build season has already grown to cover the entire competition season. I'd probably be okay with a slightly longer build, or eliminating bag and tag, but a full year build season is out of the question for me as it would drastically lower my life expectancy.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 16:15
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

We should probably take the discussion of build season length to its own thread. As is tradition this time of year.
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Unread 28-04-2015, 15:24
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Re: Cheesecake: How far is too far?

This year incentivized it more than previous years, but now that the cat's out of the bag it could really get out of hand.

Typically 3rd picks at many regions aren't that capable, so providing them a mechanism can be very overpowered.

30 lbs of custom part, plus unlimited COTS, is plenty to make meaningful systems for some years that could be installed quickly.
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