Civil debates and dissenting opinions

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

* Some folks said that they agreed with my thoughts but feared stepping into the conversation. I sent them a note back, asking "why." The response: A fear of physical reprisal against their team. Really? I'm shocked. We spend a lot of long hours together and competing. We get tired. We make mistakes. Some conflict is simply going to happen: We are hall human. However, if we have mentors fearing a physical reprisal from another mentor, we have more serious issues.

I think I saw the thread most people are referencing, although I'm not 100% sure, a lot of them were talking about essentially the same topic over and over.

Either way, I think everyone was getting pretty defensive by the end of it and things obviously escalated to a level of disrespect that I don't anyone is really proud of today.

But, never even once have I thought about or feared any sort of physical confrontation between one mentor and another at a FIRST competition. Maybe within my own team, things could have gotten heated enough that something could have happened, but definitely not with another team.

Online disagreement or arguement...yes, a team being "black-listed" temporarily...maybe, fearing phyisical confrontation from another mentor...that seems pretty out there.

But, if that is the case then you are correct, there is a pretty serious issue that needs to be addressed.

It's interesting that some people are being called "FIRST Royalty" as something that is condesending, like they annointed themselves this title. I think I know some of them personally, and if anything they have been raised to these "cult" level statuses not by themselves but by all the people in the FIRST community that they have helped.

I'm pretty sure none of them are going to confront someone in a physical manner. But like I said, maybe I'm just not as well informed as I think I am.

-Adam

[Chinmay]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

Online disagreement or arguement...yes, a team being "black-listed" temporarily...maybe, fearing phyisical confrontation from another mentor...that seems pretty out there.

....

It's interesting that some people are being called "FIRST Royalty" as something that is condesending, like they annointed themselves this title. I think I know some of them personally, and if anything they have been raised to these "cult" level statuses not by themselves but by all the people in the FIRST community that they have helped.

Adam, I think the FIRST Royalty is meant to acknowledge the role that some high profile mentors hold in our community. When someone wants to do a motor calc, and they use JVN's calculator as a starting point. Ether tends to have detailed answers to almost everything. Some users (yourself included) have a rep as people who you just know after being on this forum and in FIRST for long enough (I think of strategy genius when I think of you btw). As you said, they are raised to this status by the people they help. Its a good thing, just sometimes an intimidating thing at the same time. Imagine trying to hold your own in a debate against one of these great mentors. It could get scary, especially if they started using charged language directed towards you personally. The point is that sometimes, reputation is conflated with what people are actually saying. I don't really care how nice a guy someone is if online their posts are threatening. Royalty status does not excuse you from this.



Fear of confrontation in a physical manner is not what I am afraid of, and others can chime in about what they're afraid of, but I don't think physical repercussions are it. I am afraid of being mocked on Facebook, twitter, CD etc. and am afraid that this might cause others to take issue with me or my team at competitions. This can be as simple as not coming to our pit and learning from/teaching me/my team, or can be as complex as not cooperating/blacklisting me/my team.

The original post was referring to online confrontation, repercussions, bullying and other "intimidation tactics being employed to quash any dissenting opinions" Many people made implicit threats to both scaredsilly and MrJohnston. I was intimidated and i wasn't even part of the discussion until I joined to express my disapproval of these scare tactics. What would i even think if someone said they would end me online....

Adam, that you mention that a temporary blacklist is even a possibility is something that warranted the creation of this thread anonymously.



*I would reference posts to support my point, however, I have realized that by linking these posts, I am causing problems for the people who wrote them. This isn't about individuals, this is about feeling safe to say what you want online. Our discussion should hopefully move beyond the topics over the last few days, and into a discussion about why people feel scared to post their opinions, and how we can help solve that.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by Chinmay

Adam, I think the FIRST Royalty is meant to acknowledge the role that some high profile mentors hold in our community. When someone wants to do a motor calc, and they use JVN's calculator as a starting point. Ether tends to have detailed answers to almost everything. Some users (yourself included) have a rep as people who you just know after being on this forum and in FIRST for long enough (I think of strategy genius when I think of you btw). As you said, they are raised to this status by the people they help. Its a good thing, just sometimes an intimidating thing at the same time. Imagine trying to hold your own in a debate against one of these great mentors. It could get scary, especially if they started using charged language directed towards you personally.

The point is that sometimes, reputation is conflated with what people are actually saying. I don't really care how nice a guy someone is if online their posts are threatening. Royalty status does not excuse you from this. Referencing your own, or someone else's royalty status as a reason for why they should be given a get out of jail free card* is in my opinion irrelevant to the discussion. People should not get special consideration just based on who they are.



Fear of confrontation in a physical manner is not what I am afraid of, and others can chime in about what they're afraid of, but I don't think physical repercussions are it. I am afraid of being mocked on Facebook, twitter, CD etc. and am afraid that this might cause others to take issue with me or my team at competitions. This can be as simple as not coming to our pit and learning from/teaching me/my team, or can be as complex as not cooperating/blacklisting me/my team.

The original post was referring to online confrontation, repercussions, bullying and other "intimidation tactics being employed to quash any dissenting opinions" Many people made implicit threats to both scaredsilly and MrJohnston to "end them" or were referencing their "claws." I was intimidated and i wasn't even part of the discussion until I joined to express my disapproval of these scare tactics. What would i even think if someone said they would end me online....

Adam, that you mention that a temporary blacklist is even a possibility is something that warranted the creation of this thread anonymously.



*I would reference posts to support my point, however, I have realized that by linking these posts, I am causing problems for the people who wrote them. This isn't about individuals, this is about feeling safe to say what you want online. Our discussion should hopefully move beyond the topics over the last few days, and into a discussion about why people feel scared to post their opinions, and how we can help solve that.

Thank you for your response. It a perspective that is different than my own, since I don't visit anywhere other than CD. I don't have a Facebook, twitter, etc.. account and really can't relate to any type of cyber-bullying in those arenas. I do check CD fairly often, but don't post regularly... outside of this week for some reason. So, I haven't experienced any of the issues that were mentioned as being feared. My personal preference is to not be confrontational on purpose and try to work things out a little more civily. But, I'm sure I could be pushed over an edge and get emotional if nudged enough.

The CD commmunity is an interesting one, since some people are raised up to levels way beyond what they even want without even doing anything. I can't imagine what it would be like to be Karthik, JVN, or Libby Kamen walking around a FIRST event.

People come up to me and ask if I am "the" Adam Freeman from 67"... or tell someone else that it's me. I have no idea what they are expecting of me. I haven't done anything special. I participated on my team, helped them succeed, and communicated some of our information to the FIRST community. Most of the time I'm so over my head with something going on with the robot or my drive team that just say "hey" and must come off as a gigantic jerk. Not meaning to do that...but I'm not sure what the expectation is. On this forum, I would not expect anyone to be intimidated by me or my knowledge of anything. Most of the time I'm learning something new on here... not spouting out my knowledge of something. I would definitely not put myself in the "strategy genius" category, by the way.

I guess I would just say that everyone was over reacting to a sensitive topic, and it's probably best that the thread was at least locked to save everyone from themselves and others piling on. Personally, last I saw the thread yesterday afternoon, it didn't seem that bad. But it was gone by the time I checked for it again. I wasn't even sure if it was a specific thread or part of one of the other threads on the topic.

It's possible some of the people involved in the discussion were given special treatment by having the thread closed, to save them from damaging their reputation. But, it's not like you can't ask for a post you regret to be removed to save your own reputation. I think in this case they just might have had a friend looking out for their best interests and to eliminate an issue before it escalated any more.

The best way to approach one of these respected mentors with a difference of opinion is to do exactly what you did. Take the time to explain yourself, and try to understand the other view point enough to know when you might be offending them to a level of disrespect.

As far as the blacklist goes, I don't personally have one. And if I did, it would not be based on what happens on CD. There are teams I prefer to work with and team I prefer not to work with from a coach/team perspective, but that only goes so far. In my mind everything comes down to performance. Usually the differences that would lead to these preferences are eliminated once you get to work closely with a team. It's one of the greatest things about FRC... you get to work with virtually every team if you stay involved long enough.

[ScaredSilly]

Originally Posted by Chinmay

...
Fear of confrontation in a physical manner is not what I am afraid of, and others can chime in about what they're afraid of, but I don't think physical repercussions are it. I am afraid of being mocked on Facebook, twitter, CD etc. and am afraid that this might cause others to take issue with me or my team at competitions. This can be as simple as not coming to our pit and learning from/teaching me/my team, or can be as complex as not cooperating/blacklisting me/my team.

The original post was referring to online confrontation, repercussions, bullying and other "intimidation tactics being employed to quash any dissenting opinions" Many people made implicit threats to both scaredsilly and MrJohnston. I was intimidated and i wasn't even part of the discussion until I joined to express my disapproval of these scare tactics. What would i even think if someone said they would end me online....
...

This is the reason for the original post, and what the topic was of the original, now deleted, thread. My fear is not really of physical issues, it is more along the lines of social media issues and 'blacklisting' at competitions. I was involved in an email chain with the moderator trying to explain my rationale for posting anonymously, and when I asked how I could bring these issues up without fear of reprisal, I was told, that I could not, and that if I was afraid then I should not be posting. This is why I think I need to continue to post anonymously for the time being. So, any time anyone feels slightly uneasy about posting on something, the clear message is: Be quiet and live with the issue. I am really sad this is the message that seems to be sent here.