The Fraud of FTC Worlds - How FTC & FIRST have failed me forever.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Here's where I add the fact that YES, I'm fully aware that video footage and replay is not allowed to be shown to referees to contest a call.

Is that actually in the FTC rules? (FRC rules don't apply to FTC.)

[gblake]

Folks,

When I read the OP, I come away with the poster focusing on the decision not to replay the match, and not on the initial mistake.

Discussing the ins, outs, ups, and downs of volunteer or professional refs is a distraction from the point I think the OP wanted to make. In the story he told in his post, no one disagreed explicitly about whether or not the penalty assessment was a mistake.

Instead, I think the root of his frustration that the match wasn't replayed (or that a corrected score wasn't recorded) when all four teams involved agreed a mistake had been made.

The assumption (that might be 100% wrong) folks have been making, is that the FTC folks in charge of keeping things moving along, decided they preferred advancing into the next matches, over a replay or other adjustment of the recorded (but wrong) result of the match being discussed.

Moving the conversation back onto the topic of event-schedule-vs-correctness might be more valuable than rehashing the referees-are-human topic.

Blake

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by gblake

Folks,

When I read the OP, I come away with the poster focusing on the decision not to replay the match, and not on the initial mistake.

Discussing the ins, outs, ups, and downs of volunteer or professional refs is a distraction from the point I think the OP wanted to make. In the story he told in his post, no one disagreed explicitly about whether or not the penalty assessment was a mistake.

Instead, I think the root of his frustration that the match wasn't replayed (or that a corrected score wasn't recorded) when all four teams involved agreed a mistake had been made.

The assumption (that might be 100% wrong) folks have been making, is that the FTC folks in charge of keeping things moving along, decided they preferred advancing into the next matches, over a replay or other adjustment of the recorded (but wrong) result of the match being discussed.

Moving the conversation back onto the topic of event-schedule-vs-correctness might be more valuable than rehashing the referees-are-human topic.

Blake

Blake, I 100% agree.

This season, at every FTC competition after Minnesota State Championship that I went to, I was frankly somewhat shocked by the focus on "just getting through" the even as opposed to the experience of teams, which is in my mind what event schedule vs. correctness comes down to. I was an FTA at two qualifiers and the Minnesota state championship this season, and had to call several replays in that time (working, of course, with our head referee to determine that was necessary). It sucks to replay a match, both in terms of scheduling and because it means you have to admit that somewhere, something went wrong, but the #1 priority needs to be giving teams a fair chance to succeed or fail on their merits, not because the referee messed up a call or because the field broke at an inopportune time.

I know there was talk in some earlier FRC threads about a "Putting teams FIRST" section in the volunteer manuals, but I think that needs to extend to FTC as well. Some of the volunteer behavior I witnessed and heard about at North Super Regional and Championships is in no way acceptable, and ultimately that comes down to us needing to train our FTC volunteers better, and making sure volunteers are in positions that fit their temperament. We collectively need to raise the quality of our FTC events, especially at the Super Regional level.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

Blake, I 100% agree.


I know there was talk in some earlier FRC threads about a "Putting teams FIRST" section in the volunteer manuals, but I think that needs to extend to FTC as well. Some of the volunteer behavior I witnessed and heard about at North Super Regional and Championships is in no way acceptable, and ultimately that comes down to us needing to train our FTC volunteers better, and making sure volunteers are in positions that fit their temperament. We collectively need to raise the quality of our FTC events, especially at the Super Regional level.

As someone who volunteered as an FTA at the super north regional, I'm curious as to what behavior you are referring to.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by gblake

Moving the conversation back onto the topic of event-schedule-vs-correctness might be more valuable than rehashing the referees-are-human topic.

I am not sure if things have changed since the 2008 experience I mentioned in my post, since that is the last time I went to the championship event, but my understanding is that the decision not to replay matches at the final level was (is?) out of the hands of the individuals volunteers including the head ref.

[dtengineering]

So my high school basketball team was playing in a game that would qualify us for the provincial championship. We were up by a point with seconds to go. Our center shoots the ball, misses, the other guys grab the rebound drive down the floor... the buzzer rings and their shot goes in. They win by a point. They go to the provincials.

Was it the fault of:

A) The ref for making a bad call?

B) The center for shooting when a possession game would guarantee a win?

C) The defense for not stopping their breakout?

D) Me for missing a foul shot (not to mention a few field goals) earlier in the game?

E) Our entire team for letting it get so close that it could be decided by one bad call?

F) The universe for not being fair?

I understand, you've got a good case. Why don't you talk to the FRC teams who were on Einstein when the field control system was interfered with and failed a few years back? I think they have a good case that a world championship title was unfairly interrupted. Maybe you want to talk to the English soccer team about the "Hand of God"? There's plenty of video evidence that Maradona actually comitted a foul rather than scoring a game deciding world cup elimination match. (It's an older reference but maybe a bit more significant on the world sporting scene than my high school basketball tournament experience!)

If you're looking for sympathy... well, I am sorry to hear that a mistake was made. I appreciate the frustration, but chances are the ref feels just as bad about making a bad call as you feel about the call being made. If it is any consolation, I'm pretty sure that my life has not been greatly damaged by what I truly believe was a monumentally incorrect call by a basketball referee over 25 years ago. I'm sure you'll get over this in time.

If you're looking to make the point that life is unfair... well, let's just hope that is the worst unfairness that life deals you.

Jason

[T^2]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Why don't you talk to the FRC teams who were on Einstein when the field control system was interfered with and failed a few years back?

Those teams received compensation, as well as acknowledgement from FIRST that the problem existed. Granted, the issues that year extended beyond Einstein.

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by gblake

Folks,

When I read the OP, I come away with the poster focusing on the decision not to replay the match, and not on the initial mistake.

Discussing the ins, outs, ups, and downs of volunteer or professional refs is a distraction from the point I think the OP wanted to make. In the story he told in his post, no one disagreed explicitly about whether or not the penalty assessment was a mistake.

Instead, I think the root of his frustration that the match wasn't replayed (or that a corrected score wasn't recorded) when all four teams involved agreed a mistake had been made.

The assumption (that might be 100% wrong) folks have been making, is that the FTC folks in charge of keeping things moving along, decided they preferred advancing into the next matches, over a replay or other adjustment of the recorded (but wrong) result of the match being discussed.

Moving the conversation back onto the topic of event-schedule-vs-correctness might be more valuable than rehashing the referees-are-human topic.

Blake

As one of the teams on red alliance (not playing in that match) we were stunned that a replay wasn't granted. All 4 teams wanted it and from what we could tell observing the match only 1 ref called the penalty but was blatently wrong. There were 4 refs for a 12'x12' field, it's not like FRC where it's hard work trying to see what's going on. For those of you not participating in FTC this incorrect call was a 370 point swing literally gifting a win to blue.

Probably the most uninspiring moment for us since starting with FIRST in 2009. If scheduling was the reason a replay wasn't granted someone needs re-think why they're involved with this because they've failed in the most basic function - inspiring kids. No one in the stands would have cared about missing 5min of lunch break or only waiting patiently 25min for closing ceremony to begin.

Fail on so many levels.