The Fraud of FTC Worlds - How FTC & FIRST have failed me forever.

[gblake]

I have often ref'ed VRC matches.

Asking the refs to review video is a very bad idea.

The worst situation would be attempting to review random footage on random playback devices offered at random times by random people. Great Ceasar's ghost! What a nightmare that would be.

A bad situation would be having to instrument the fields with video equipment, keeping that equipment's lines of sight unobstructed, then retrieving the footage, isolating the incident(s), wishing that the point of view was better, spending time staring at the footage, running it back and forth, and discussing it, and then maybe (or not) having a clear ability to revise the outcome of a match.

As a ref, I would instead recommend revising the rules to include a quick double-check with the teams of all scores/penalties before they become set in stone. During that check, any protests (by the students at the field can be heard by the refs. Head refs decisions are final.

Then we/you move on...

When I wrote my earlier post here, I was unaware that the FTC rules forbid replays to correct anything (including scoring/penalty mistakes (if one actually does occur)) other than the three circumstances listed in the rules. So... Dear OP - There was no "Fraud of FTC Worlds" because of the event staff deciding not to replay that match. The four teams involved in that match asked the FTC event staff to violate FTC rules, and they got the exact answer that they should have expected.

Blake

[MattRain]

Originally Posted by gblake

. So... Dear OP - There was no "Fraud of FTC Worlds" because of the event staff deciding not to replay that match. The four teams involved in that match asked the FTC event staff to violate FTC rules, and they got the exact answer that they should have expected.

Blake

There was not a violation of rules here. Read them. The fact that the refs did not want to replay a match to stay on schedule is just wrong (Even though its not in the G14 rules, I know). I have run as head ref in some Arizona qualifiers, and this is just plane wrong. They teams came together to show that it was wrong. They were ignored. End of story. I agree with the OP that they should have had a replay of the match.

Over the 5 years that we have been to Worlds, we have run into problems of this factor. Field communications dropping, us holding the controllers buy the cords, and the robots still running..... all of the issues came back to us, saying they would not replay the matches.... it has happened every year, and is just plane wrong. We had extra time sitting around before awards and such that could have been used to replay a 5 minute match that really could have changed the ranking/game.

[Kpchem]

Originally Posted by MattRain

There was not a violation of rules here. Read them. The fact that the refs did not want to replay a match to stay on schedule is just wrong....

As quoted earlier in this thread, it would have been a violation of G14 to replay the match.

Originally Posted by 2015 FTC Manual

<G14> Matches are replayed at the discretion of the Head Referee and only under the following circumstances:
a. Failure of a Field Element that was likely to have impacted which Alliance won the Match.
b. Loss of control of a Robot due to a VERIFIABLE failure of the tournament-supplied FCS computer, FCS software, USB Hub, or Gamepad that was likely to have impacted which Alliance won the Match.
c. Loss of control of all four Robots due to a failure of the Field’s wireless router that was likely to have impacted which Alliance won the Match.

None of those events occurred, and therefore the head referee could not replay the match according to the rules laid out in the 2015 manual. Video replays are not allowed as per <T1-a>, and there is no clause for "all the teams agree the call was blown". Whether or not there should be is a discussion unto itself, but there was no way for the head referee to grant a replay under the 2015 rules.

Having watched the match recording several times, I can understand how Red could possibly be seen as at fault for pushing Blue into a position where they tipped the goal, especially with the proximity to the End Game and because the goal was in the Blue Parking Zone. I have been the head referee for Colorado FTC for the last several years and I can't say that I know what call I would have made in that situation, it's an incredibly close call in an incredibly high-stress environment. OP, I'm sorry that this happened to your team and you feel slighted, but I don't know that the unequivocally wrong decision was made.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by Kpchem

I don't know that the unequivocally wrong decision was made.

Of course the unequivocally wrong decision was made. An injustice was committed against these teams. The people in charge made a decision that may have been in line with the letter of the rules, but was immoral. If the written laws are immoral, then it is one's duty to ignore them. Blind obedience to the law is the very hallmark of fascism.

[MattRain]

Originally Posted by T^2

Of course the unequivocally wrong decision was made. An injustice was committed against these teams. The people in charge made a decision that may have been in line with the letter of the rules, but was immoral. If the written laws are immoral, then it is one's duty to ignore them. Blind obedience to the law is the very hallmark of fascism.

2 Thumbs up. FIRST is to inspire students.... its just wrong about how this was called. Ok, so its not a written rule of FTC this year. But everyone fighting that it wasn't wrong, put yourself in this situation, without Frank's help... you would be mad at the outcome too!

[Kpchem]

Originally Posted by T^2

Of course the unequivocally wrong decision was made. An injustice was committed against these teams. The people in charge made a decision that may have been in line with the letter of the rules, but was immoral. If the written laws are immoral, then it is one's duty to ignore them. Blind obedience to the law is the very hallmark of fascism.

Originally Posted by MattRain

2 Thumbs up. FIRST is to inspire students.... its just wrong about how this was called. Ok, so its not a written rule of FTC this year. But everyone fighting that it wasn't wrong, put yourself in this situation, without Frank's help... you would be mad at the outcome too!

So now it's the head referee's responsibility to both enforce the rules as well as decide when the existing rules are wrong, and then just not follow the ones which they think are wrong? And if they don't, and instead decide to follow the rules that they have been using all year, they're being fascist? Really?

To address your point Matt: Put in the situation of the OP here, I can understand being frustrated and angry. But I would never ask a referee or other FIRST volunteer to go directly against the manual that they have been asked to follow, even if I was unhappy with the results of that.

My original quote is that having watched the videos several times I'm not 100% sure that the penalty should have been on Blue, which is what a lot of people here are arguing. If the referees at the event believe that Red's actions caused Blue to tip over the ball tube, then the penalty was applied correctly. If that's not the case and it was a mis-marked score sheet, then it was a mistake and the referees can correct that after the fact. However, what they cannot do is simply replay a match because that is what the teams in the match want.

I agree with the other posters in this thread that having the teams sign off on the scoresheets would have helped in this situation to make sure this wasn't an error, and this is why I always talk with teams after a match and explain any penalties that are called, so they understand what is being called before it is announced.

[MattRain]

Originally Posted by Kpchem

My original quote is that having watched the videos several times I'm not 100% sure that the penalty should have been on Blue, which is what a lot of people here are arguing. If the referees at the event believe that Red's actions caused Blue to tip over the ball tube, then the penalty was applied correctly. If that's not the case and it was a mis-marked score sheet, then it was a mistake and the referees can correct that after the fact. However, what they cannot do is simply replay a match because that is what the teams in the match want.

I agree with the other posters in this thread that having the teams sign off on the scoresheets would have helped in this situation to make sure this wasn't an error, and this is why I always talk with teams after a match and explain any penalties that are called, so they understand what is being called before it is announced.

OP:
Did the red alliance drop the goal? No. It's obvious in the footage. Here's where I add the fact that YES, I'm fully aware that video footage and replay is not allowed to be shown to referees to contest a call.

We were aware of this, and despite telling them a wrong call was made, we knew we wouldn't get much out of this.

We appealed to the gracious professionalism in the students from Tesla and Masquerade. We showed all of them the video. They all agreed - the call was wrong. We didn't tip over their goal. They did.

OP:
The answer? No. Why? My understanding was that it was to save time. They couldn't spare 5 minutes to correct an enormous injustice. They were saving face and saving the tournament five minutes by completely shafting our alliance. We spent 7 months developing this robot and getting to this stage to be shut out for the purpose of saving five minutes.

The Black Bolded: The fact of the matter is it was scored wrong and nothing was still done about it. Just to save time. This has happened multiple times.

Part of my problem here is that the more FRC based posters here are posting, not being a 100% sure on the way a match is scored and its penalties.

If a BLUE goal is knocked over by a BLUE robot, the BLUE alliance is given a 50 Point Penalty, and no score for that goal.

<GS14>: Robots may not tip over ANY Rolling Goal (deliberately or accidentally). If this occurs, the offending Alliance will incur a Major Penalty.

If a BLUE goal is knocked over by a RED robot, the RED Alliance is given a 50 point Penalty, and the BLUE goal is scored as completely full, or 261 points for that goal.

<GS5>: Robots may not de-Score Balls from any of the opponent Alliance’s Goals. If Balls are de-Scored, the offending Alliance will incur a Major Penalty per incident plus a Penalty equal to the maximum Ball Tube points for that Goal. Please note that <GS14> may also apply.

It is clear in that video that 5026, a BLUE alliance robot, tipped over the BLUE rolling goal while the RED robot was not touching 5026. BLUE should have been penalized for it and not RED.

If you were to read the rules, you may agree with us that the wrong call was made and nothing was done about it. That's part of the reason the OP is angry.

It's Elimination rounds, not qualifiers. If it was a qualification match it may not matter as much, but the fact that it was a deciding elimination match just makes this worse. Not to mention it could have meant that my team wouldn't have come out as the FTC World Champs. I understand its a gray area with the Head Ref, but I would rather inspire the kids than shove them away and told to forget about it. It just not right.

[Abhishek R]

I've been on the receiving end of multiple "unfair" elimination bracket ending calls, and it really does hurt. I can't believe some people are saying "it's just robots," but it's really not fun or inspiring to lose matches when you really did win, especially when it means the end of the regional, or in some cases, end of the season. The students breathe and live FIRST, and this means the world to us, to put in all this work and effort into a machine. I just don't understand why, if everyone agreed an incorrect call was made, they didn't replay the match? Surely a single FTC match can't take that much time?

[Kpchem]

The teams all agreed that it was the wrong call, but I did not see any statement from the OP that the referees said that they made the wrong call. If the referees had agreed they made the wrong call, the call could have been reversed.

I know that my profile says FRC, but I am saying all of this as someone who has been the head referee for FTC in Colorado for the last three years. I have read the rules a few different times.

My uncertainty stems from the interaction that the RED robot has a few seconds before the BLUE robot tips the goal. I'm not trying to argue that red was touching blue, but they may have contributed to it tipping. As I stated earlier, I don't know what call I would have made at the time if I had been in the referee's shoes.

I know the stakes, I know that it was an important match. But it's not a grey area for the referee. The instances where a field replay can occur are clearly laid out in G14, and the referees being unclear on a cal or making the wrong call is not one of them.

I agree this is all for the kids, but I disagree with saying that we can arbitrarily change the rules just because a controversial call is made.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by T^2

Of course the unequivocally wrong decision was made. An injustice was committed against these teams. The people in charge made a decision that may have been in line with the letter of the rules, but was immoral. If the written laws are immoral, then it is one's duty to ignore them. Blind obedience to the law is the very hallmark of fascism.

Wow. Just wow. Wow.

But first:

I'm with Blake. The rules are pretty clear on what/when a match is replayed. And I've refereed about as many matches as Blake. While the first call may have been bad, there wasn't / isn't an option to replay the match based on four teams requesting it. As we say "two wrongs don't make a right". And the referees rule is final.

Now to "immoral" and "hall mark of fascism".

You need to get a grip and dial this back. It's just robots. ROBOTS. Stuff like this happens in the real world on a semi-regular basis. This is a game, lives are not at stake. People make bad calls and things don't go your way, this may be the first time, isn't going to be the last. Top teams will take this and shake it off and come back next season. You've been here since 2011, so you are either a roboteer with lots of experience or a mentor. In either case set a positive example.

[T^2]

Originally Posted by Foster

You need to get a grip and dial this back. It's just robots. ROBOTS. Stuff like this happens in the real world on a semi-regular basis. This is a game, lives are not at stake.

We differ. So be it.

[AndrewPospeshil]

Originally Posted by T^2

Of course the unequivocally wrong decision was made. An injustice was committed against these teams. The people in charge made a decision that may have been in line with the letter of the rules, but was immoral. If the written laws are immoral, then it is one's duty to ignore them. Blind obedience to the law is the very hallmark of fascism.

I don't think a bad FTC referee call has much to do with facism, but that's just me.

As far as I can tell, there's really no question about what should've been done. Correct me if I'm wrong, but matches are not to be replayed unless they fall under the circumstances of G14, which they didn't. I'm not 100% well-versed in FTC referee rules and guidelines off the top of my head, but I'm pretty positive video evidence is not allowed to be used. I know that I've volunteered at plenty of competitions where a team brought video evidence to the refs and they wouldn't even view it, so I assume the same would apply here. The way I see it, the refs were just following the rules. Should the rules be rewritten? Maybe. But that's not up to the refs to decide on the competition floor. Imagine how chaotic FTC (and FRC, FLL) would be if refs could cherry-pick which rules they want to abide by (in the name of facism or otherwise). Not to mention that although one 5-minute delay might not affect competition that much, inviting other teams to have their matches replayed could cause significant delays.

Tough calls like this happen. I am legitimately sorry for what happened to your team, and the fact that it may have prevented you from going further at the world championship. That's a bummer. More than that it's almost heartbreaking. But I think that this is your job as a mentor to make the best of a negative experience and turn it into a positive, learning one. Instead of teaching your kids that "the refs or evil," or on the flipside that you should "live with it," teach your kids something constructive about the experience. Whether it's through organizing a petition to FIRST about your displeasure with the FTC rules, advocating for a way to fix them, or by developing a robot that is less prone to penalties next year, use this as a life lesson. I think you're presented with a unique and special opportunity right now and I would hate to see it go to waste. It's not my place as a high schooler to tell an adult what to do, but I strongly encourage you to make what you want of this situation. You can either take it as a negative and allow it to destroy your FTC/FIRST career, or you can have your kids grow and improve as individuals and a team thanks to this experience.