Eliminations replay card

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by blazingbronco18

I completely agree. At the end of the day we should have double checked everything was ready to go. I just wanted to see what the thoughts in the community were. I also am beginning to like the idea of counting 2 of 3 semifinal matches.

The issue I have with that is it would punish teams who switched strategies between matches to counter certain things.
One of our big matches we tried to run a 20 point auto. When that didn't work and upon reviewing the match we decided to switch strategies and pull the step bins. By pulling the step bins and removing the yellow totes from the field we had less clutter and more bins to score with and we did better. Invalidating that match and adding in another would give the opposing side a chance to go "well we saw the strat lets counter it!" Now this does happen with field faults, but when a field fault occurs it isn't on either team its on the staff at the event (no disrespect you guys da real mvps) which means that it was unfair to both teams and created an unfair playing field that was out of both teams control.

I feel like this is the difference between someone forgetting an umbrella when they know its going to rain, and someone not bringing an umbrella cause the weather channel said it would be sunny.


Also I'm pretty sure Ms. Frizzle would say "With a smaller sample size you are in for a surprise"* if the Magic School bus ever got to the statistics episode.


*I have no way of knowing if Ms Frizzle would say this but I believe she would and then she would turn the bus into an alligator.

[TedG]

I think this concept of a "redo card" for robot problems or operator error is a very bad idea. That's what this program is all about, design and build it well, robust, and consistent. It wouldn't be fair to the other teams who did their job.

As others have mentioned:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay

They have set the standards. Replays only occur after a field fault.

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

Part of FRC is to introduce you to how engineering is in real life: you can't use a redo card if you're landing something on the moon.

this is also unfair to the other teams, who successfully beat you, in part because they remembered to tighten every screw, plug in all the batteries, make sure their pneumatics were well built (cough cough my team in 2012 cough cough).

FRC, especially recycle rush, is about having the robot best made for the challenge win, and that includes durability (in my opinion anyways)

Recycle Rush is all about how well you've designed and built your robot, how well you work with your alliances, etc. Less about defense and offence (other than can grabbing). And I feel that you're given enough ways to overcome a mishap or two within the game. (this of course is just my opinion)

[Michael Hill]

I'd like for alliances to have a "challenge" card for elims. If they disagree with a call from a ref, they would go to the video. If they get a call not in their favor, they lose their card, just as in football.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by TedG

I think this concept of a "redo card" for robot problems or operator error is a very bad idea. That's what this program is all about, design and build it well, robust, and consistent. It wouldn't be fair to the other teams who did their job.

Then shouldn't we make every series a best of 1? Why give teams another chance in the eliminations if they should be ready to go from the beginning?

We wouldn't have had the 2013 World Champions is this were the case, among many others.

[blazingbronco18]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

I'd like for alliances to have an "challenge" card for elims. If they disagree with a call from a ref, they would go to the video. If they get a call not in their favor, they lose their card, just as in football.

This would certainly make some games more interesting. Specifically I think this card would have been useful for Aerial Assist where there were a lot of controversial call. I don't think a challenge card is as helpful for some games like Recycle Rush.

[TedG]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

Then shouldn't we make every series a best of 1? Why give teams another chance in the eliminations if they should be ready to go from the beginning?

We wouldn't have had the 2013 World Champions is this were the case, among many others.

That's not what I said, I feel the double elimination is important, that's what I meant here:

I feel that you're given enough ways to overcome a mishap or two within the game..

It's the redo card thing for the reasons mentioned before; team member operator error or robot malfunction.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by blazingbronco18

This would certainly make some games more interesting. Specifically I think this card would have been useful for Aerial Assist where there were a lot of controversial call. I don't think a challenge card is as helpful for some games like Recycle Rush.

At the 2015 Tech Valley Regional, our #5 Alliance had an awesome 2nd Quarterfinal match, but when the score came up, it was only 120-something.
We were confused, as we had 4 capped stacks built. We talked to the referees, who agreed with our assessment, and they re-evaluated the score. We scored 152. It was enough to barely make it to semifinals.
If the referees had not agreed they had been in error, we would have been knocked out in quarterfinals unjustly. Challenge cards would alleviate this problem, especially if the challenge card meant the referees could examine video.
This might introduce other problems I have yet to think out, but it seems reasonable.

[Jus_McG-3193]

I agree with many of the opinions on this thread, one of the main aspects of FRC is the engineering process involved within it. In life there are always going to be unexpected issues that may arise when running tests or in a performance situation such as a match in FRC. Teams should be presuming all of the possible outcomes of any scenario in which they participate in. This is all part of the extensive engineering procedures in which teams must prepare in order to accomplish any goals that are placed in front of them.

With that being said, there are always going to be technical failures in which the teams' robot has experienced some sort of near catastrophic event which does not fall under the category of which I described above. Unless there are situations where this may arise, I do not believe that a redo card would be right/fair to use. My personal opinion is that a replay review card for a team/alliance could be useful. This could be used for a questionable penalty calls, as well as slight replay calls when necessary. This could be instituted possibly once per team through all of the qualification matches, and maybe one per alliance, per round of eliminations. This could bring about more accurate calls and fairness to the competition side of FRC.

[blazingbronco18]

Originally Posted by Jus_McG-3193

With that being said, there are always going to be technical failures in which the teams' robot has experienced some sort of near catastrophic event which does not fall under the category of which I described above. Unless there are situations where this may arise, I do not believe that a redo card would be right/fair to use. My personal opinion is that a replay review card for a team/alliance could be useful. This could be used for a questionable penalty calls, as well as slight replay calls when necessary. This could be instituted possibly once per team through all of the qualification matches, and maybe one per alliance, per round of eliminations. This could bring about more accurate calls and fairness to the competition side of FRC.

If a replay review card is created for next season, I would be interested to see it used in a way similar to football. Giving each alliance captain one card, and if they win the challenge then they get the card back, but if they lose the challenge they don't get the card back. And your only allowed to use the challenge card a maximum of 3 times throughout the whole eliminations tournament. This would certainly add a new strategy element to the game.

[TedG]

Originally Posted by blazingbronco18

If a replay review card is created for next season, I would be interested to see it used in a way similar to football. Giving each alliance captain one card, and if they win the challenge then they get the card back, but if they lose the challenge they don't get the card back. And your only allowed to use the challenge card a maximum of 3 times throughout the whole eliminations tournament. This would certainly add a new strategy element to the game.

I agree with this, It would help eliminate being a victim of a bad call or mistakes made by officials.
It couldn't be used because you forgot to plug in your battery, but if you were faulted by another robot that didn't get called or didn't get the points you actually earned that could be verified, etc.

A preset list of challenges you could use the card(s) for.

To fix a wrong that we all would expect and want to get fixed, and if you loose the challenge, you loose the card.

Good idea

[rdhester]

Originally Posted by Mike Bortfeldt

For this year's game, you could implement a similar "best 2 out of 3" in semi's by only taking the average of the alliances two highest scores (drop the lowest). This would allow for a single bad match without replays. It really comes down to what the GDC was trying to do with this scoring format. If reliability and consistency was important, then the current method works fine.

Mike

Interesting theory... lets apply CMP semifinals where 188,1678,1671,5012 beat 148,114,1923,900 by 1.7 points to make it to the finals and ultimately win. Removing the lowest score and averaging the other two results in

987 2826 4265 2512 277.0 avg
118 1678 1671 5012 242.5 avg
148 1114 1923 900 241.0 avg
1023 2338 3996 1089 226.0 avg

Same result with a 1.5 point differential instead of a 1.7. The lesson here is that you have no idea of the effect on your team as a result of others replays. Your bad match because of a loose fuse may be balanced with someone elses bad match because an RC was stuck on their can grabber.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by TedG

That's not what I said, I feel the double elimination is important, that's what I meant here:

It's the redo card thing for the reasons mentioned before; team member operator error or robot malfunction.

I see, I misinterpreted the redo card. You are right, my bad. In that case, I would've liked to see a crossover of the elimination format with the average system - basically, drop the lowest score out of three matches and average the rest.

[New Lightning]

I heartily support the use of a replay card. When I was a student in 2014 there was a call that I think after review might have overturned a tech foul which would have won us a second SF match. Whether or not the refs made the right call I'm not going to argue because in the end its there call. But if we had a replay card there would have been some more clarification on the call so we understood the call better.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

I'd like for alliances to have a "challenge" card for elims. If they disagree with a call from a ref, they would go to the video. If they get a call not in their favor, they lose their card, just as in football.

What video? That blurry feed that goes to the webcasts, where they cut away from the action just as it gets exciting?

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

What video? That blurry feed that goes to the webcasts, where they cut away from the action just as it gets exciting?

A standardized full-field video FIRST begins implementing in 2016, of course!