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Unread 07-05-2015, 14:18
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

Coming in a bit late to the party, but I'll try to check everything:

From OP, for future reference, in lengths more than about four inches, bar stock should only be used for tension elements. If the item will be under any sort of compression or torsion, go with angle or channel (or, though I've not designed with it, sheet metal with appropriate bends).

I'm not entirely sure where the "initial robot" ends and the "new robot" begins. For sanity's sake I'll assume everything after "We are using a spare chassi[s]" is all about the new robot.

You refer to rotating the mecanum wheels sideways, and Kevin Leonard advised negatively. Unfortunately, the graphics provided do not really provide any idea as to how the wheels/gearboxes/bearings were attached to the frame in the first place, nor how they are mounted now. Perhaps he has more info. 3946 used Mecanums for Aerial Assist (we vastly underestimated defense!), and the key elements to make mecanum work from my experience are:
  • (As with any drive system) make sure that there is a solid support structure. The wheels must support the axles (and/or gearboxes), the axles/gearboxes support the beams, the beams support the joists, and the joists support the rest of the robot. The key thing is NOT to think so much about the robot chassis as supporting the gearbox/axle, as to think about the gearbox/axle supporting the chassis. (OBTW, the same is true of airplane fuselages and wings, which is where I learned this many years ago, before FRC existed; wings that fold up are no good for flying. I remember cringing when I saw the F4Us in Baa Baa Black Sheep/Black Sheep Squadron, and marveling when I later found out that yes, those were real WWII planes!)
  • Keep the axles horizontal. We mounted AM TB2 gearboxes on the main beams with no bearings on the ends of the axles, and had to stiffen up those mounts considerably.
  • Provide enough flexibility in the chassis and/or a suspension so that weight is equally distributed among the wheels. This one I would consider more of a "good idea" than a "hard requirement". Our practice robot for Aerial Assist (made of lumber, and the product of slamming together a wooden pickup chassis and makeshift mecanum mounts with an external control board that was almost a trailer, but was eventually "twisted around the umbilical" and "screwed to the right side" of the robot) had about four times as much weight on the right rear wheel as the front left wheel, but the drivers learned to work with it fairly quickly.

I can't figure out this quote - the bottom line is that bar stock cannot support compression or torsion, only extension. If the concept of swapping out the bar stock with cable gives you the creeps, bar stock is probably not the right answer.
Quote:
For the elevator assembly we are going to take pieces of bar stock with 2 bearings on the sides gripping the tubing. With 4 sets of 2 bearings we believe it will slide nicely with any weight load and again the assembly is held together with 2x1 rectangular tubing.
Ramp: can't help you there first hand - we decided early to go landfill. If you do manage to get your lift faster than your HP can feed through the chute door, I recommend the long low slope ramp used by 254 (Cheezy Poofs) on EinsteinCarson; it elegantly coupled this impedance contrast without requiring a "Robin" style (see team 148, RoboWranglers) active stacker.
What do you mean by "webbing"? 3946 used chain, as we did not have ready access to long loops of timing belt, but we knew that we could extend 10' lengths of chain with master links as long as we needed. We used two chains to provide torsion control in the "roll" dimension. With sufficiently robust rollers to handle this torque, this would not be necessary. We did not trust our ability to make such a system, and decided to use two chains.

Sorry, but the Ri3ds seem like years ago now. Even after I went back, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about with Ri3d Indiana.
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Last edited by GeeTwo : 07-05-2015 at 14:35.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 14:26
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo View Post
Coming in a bit late to the party, but I'll try to check everything:

From OP, for future reference, in lengths more than about four inches, bar stock should only be used for tension elements. If the item will be under any sort of compression or torsion, go with angle or channel (or, though I've not designed with it, sheet metal with appropriate bends).

I'm not entirely sure where the "initial robot" ends and the "new robot" begins. For sanity's sake I'll assume everything after "We are using a spare chassi[s]" is all about the new robot.

You refer to rotating the mecanum wheels sideways, and Kevin Leonard advised negatively. Unfortunately, the graphics provided do not really provide any idea as to how the wheels/gearboxes/bearings were attached to the frame in the first place, nor how they are mounted now. Perhaps he has more info. 3946 used Mecanums for Aerial Assist (we vastly underestimated defense!), and the key elements to make mecanum work from my experience are:
  • (As with any drive system) make sure that there is a solid support structure. The wheels must support the axles (and/or gearboxes), the axles/gearboxes support the beams, the beams support the joists, and the joists support the rest of the robot. The key thing is NOT to think so much about the robot chassis as supporting the gearbox/axle, as to think about the gearbox/axle supporting the chassis. (OBTW, the same is true of airplane fuselages and wings, which is where I learned this many years ago, before FRC existed; wings that fold up are no good for flying. I remember cringing when I saw the F4Us in Baa Baa Black Sheep/Black Sheep Squadron, and marveling when I later found out that yes, those were real WWII planes!)
  • Keep the axles horizontal. We mounted AM TB2 gearboxes on the main beams with no bearings on the ends of the axles, and had to stiffen up those mounts considerably.
  • Provide enough flexibility in the chassis and/or a suspension so that weight is equally distributed among the wheels. This one I would consider more of a "good idea" than a "hard requirement". Our practice robot for Aerial Assist (made of lumber, and the product of slamming together a wooden pickup chassis and makeshift mecanum mounts with an external control board that was almost a trailer, but was eventually "twisted around the umbilical" and "screwed to the right side" of the robot) had about four times as much weight on the right rear wheel as the front left wheel, but the drivers learned to work with it fairly quickly.

I can't figure out this quote - the bottom line is that bar stock cannot support compression or torsion, only extension. If the concept of swapping out the bar stock with cable gives you the creeps, bar stock is probably not the right answer.


Ramp: can't help you there first hand - we decided early to go landfill. If you do manage to get your lift faster than your HP can feed through the chute door, I recommend the long low slope ramp used by 254 (Cheezy Poofs) on Einstein; it elegantly coupled this impedance contrast without requiring a "Robin" style (see team 148, RoboWranglers) active stacker.
What do you mean by "webbing"? 3946 used chain, as we did not have ready access to long loops of timing belt, but we knew that we could extend 10' lengths of chain with master links as long as we needed. We used two chains to provide torsion control in the "roll" dimension. With sufficiently robust rollers to handle this torque, this would not be necessary. We did not trust our ability to make such a system, and decided to use two chains.

Sorry, but the Ri3ds seem like years ago now. Even after I went back, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about with Ri3d Indiana.
For the record, 254 was not on Einstein this year. But they were incredibly effective with their long ramp.

20 used the VexPro Clamping Gearboxes with the Mecanum wheels in a WCD-style setup.
Personally, if I were to design a simple off-season robot this year, I would use the KOP chassis, an elevator with Ri3d Indiana tabs and a 1325-style tote-catcher or a ramp.
Super-simple, and very effective.

Good luck, and if you have any questions about our drivetrain setup, I can try to answer them, or I can ask someone who knows more about it than I do.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 14:36
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

The biggest draw back to a tethered ramp to me is it removes your ability to help out in the can wars. There were several times this seasons that we thought of going to that solution but we rejected it every time because we knew the can grab was going to be important at championship.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 14:50
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
The biggest draw back to a tethered ramp to me is it removes your ability to help out in the can wars. There were several times this seasons that we thought of going to that solution but we rejected it every time because we knew the can grab was going to be important at championship.
You can do both. 5188 has a back ramp and a (single) canburglar. There's two in the design, but the 2nd one never got put on because of weight.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 15:06
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV View Post
The biggest draw back to a tethered ramp to me is it removes your ability to help out in the can wars. There were several times this seasons that we thought of going to that solution but we rejected it every time because we knew the can grab was going to be important at championship.
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Originally Posted by Knufire View Post
You can do both...
Not at the same time. A tether, being part of the robot, is not permitted to start the match in the auto zone.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 15:24
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Not at the same time. A tether, being part of the robot, is not permitted to start the match in the auto zone.
My bad. Somehow I missed the word tethered while reading on mobile.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 16:04
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

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Originally Posted by Sperkowsky View Post
We have a water jet cutting sponsor that we haven't used yet. Those plates may be a good time
My comment was actually the opposite of that. You can get plates made yourself, but my comment was about the actual assembly of the elevator, not the plates holding bearings or rollers. You can buy plates and rollers if you like, but the actual structure of the elevator needs to have tight tolerances as well.

There is a lot of focus on making sure rollers are tightly toleranced in elevator design, but don't forget to make your structure tightly toleranced as well. Our structure was a little bit out of square and it caused a lot of flexing and bending.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 17:19
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Not at the same time. A tether, being part of the robot, is not permitted to start the match in the auto zone.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 17:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron View Post
My comment was actually the opposite of that. You can get plates made yourself, but my comment was about the actual assembly of the elevator, not the plates holding bearings or rollers. You can buy plates and rollers if you like, but the actual structure of the elevator needs to have tight tolerances as well.

There is a lot of focus on making sure rollers are tightly toleranced in elevator design, but don't forget to make your structure tightly toleranced as well. Our structure was a little bit out of square and it caused a lot of flexing and bending.
Ahh yes. Not being precise bit us hard already this year and the best thing to do is not make the same mistake twice.
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Unread 07-05-2015, 18:18
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

In addition to the videos that Todd linked to, you may want to study the "Strategic Design" YouTube video posted by Karthik before you really get started. It may also be of benefit to study game videos and compare the driving characteristics of robots with long chassis vs. that of robots with wide chassis, especially when traversing the scoring platforms at an angle. You may also notice that many of the fast HP stackers (i.e. the Einstein winning alliance) did not need ramps tethered to their robot (or a third robot).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweedy399 View Post
One thing that my team and many others teams did was add an RC "stabilizer". This would grab the RC initially and follow it all the way to the top of the stack to secure the RC and the whole stack. This can even not be powered but just ride with the tote manipulator and the stack. We have found great success in this and I would highly recommend it.
This echos what a mentor from one of the Einstein winners said in the 13th post of the following thread. We added an RC stabilizer after our first Regional. If we had done our strategic analysis properly, we would not have added it. We would have had it on our robot from the beginning and we would have done better at our first Regional.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=136979


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunngeon View Post
Reiterating what Todd and Eric said, it really seems like you're wanting to cherry pick things that worked for other teams. Looking at the successful designs is great, but what do you gain in the long term from building a good, robust robot for THIS game?
One of the biggest mistakes I see teams (FRC and FLL) making is that they copy without understanding what they are copying. It is good to study another teams design to add to your repertoire of design techniques and mechanisms. When you copy only one piece of someone's design without understanding the whole, you may miss copying another part of their design that is crucial to the success of the part you are copying.

The reliability that you are after has as much to do with the quality of construction as the design of the robot. Your team may want to look at the construction practices (mechanical and electrical) in the off season and make any necessary improvements in the off-season. Your off-season robot can be the final test for any training you do. Monochron's comments about the lift are spot on. Or lift mechanism was built crooked and when it was first installed, there was so much friction it had to be forced up and down. I highly recommend the "Electronics Tutorial" videos published by Code Orange. We had ZERO electrical problems this year through two Regionals and Champs.

http://www.teamcodeorange.com/tutorials-electronics.php

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Unread 07-05-2015, 19:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philso View Post
In addition to the videos that Todd linked to, you may want to study the "Strategic Design" YouTube video posted by Karthik before you really get started. It may also be of benefit to study game videos and compare the driving characteristics of robots with long chassis vs. that of robots with wide chassis, especially when traversing the scoring platforms at an angle. You may also notice that many of the fast HP stackers (i.e. the Einstein winning alliance) did not need ramps tethered to their robot (or a third robot).




This echos what a mentor from one of the Einstein winners said in the 13th post of the following thread. We added an RC stabilizer after our first Regional. If we had done our strategic analysis properly, we would not have added it. We would have had it on our robot from the beginning and we would have done better at our first Regional.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=136979




One of the biggest mistakes I see teams (FRC and FLL) making is that they copy without understanding what they are copying. It is good to study another teams design to add to your repertoire of design techniques and mechanisms. When you copy only one piece of someone's design without understanding the whole, you may miss copying another part of their design that is crucial to the success of the part you are copying.

The reliability that you are after has as much to do with the quality of construction as the design of the robot. Your team may want to look at the construction practices (mechanical and electrical) in the off season and make any necessary improvements in the off-season. Your off-season robot can be the final test for any training you do. Monochron's comments about the lift are spot on. Or lift mechanism was built crooked and when it was first installed, there was so much friction it had to be forced up and down. I highly recommend the "Electronics Tutorial" videos published by Code Orange. We had ZERO electrical problems this year through two Regionals and Champs.

http://www.teamcodeorange.com/tutorials-electronics.php
Our electrical team is great our mechanical team is bad. We also had zero electrical issues this year mechanically we have been a mess for years.

Me and a few other students analyzed this game quite a bit. Ill definitely watch those videos though.

Thanks for the help just a quick question.

Best way of setting up chain to work with this system. The middle is off limits due to it being part of the ramp so we would have to have chains at the corners. Do we need it on both sides how would we set up the shaft running through the top. Is back drive a big issue and should we plan on having to set something like a bike brake.

And since we never have done chain any tools we need to buy.

Thanks
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Unread 08-05-2015, 19:36
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

hello everyone,

so we have ordered all of our parts and I have a few questions but first what we ordered

Vex $125

Flanged Bearing - 13.73mm (1/2" Tight Press ThunderHex) x 1.125in x 0.313in (11-pack)
1/2" ThunderHex Stock (3 feet) x2
#25 Sprocket w/ Hub - 16t - 1/2" Round ID x6
Clamping Shaft Collar - 1/2" Hex ID x4
#25 Heavy Duty Master Link x10

Competition robot parts $50.00

$50 dollar version including rollers and roller hardware

Pitsco

Tetrix .25 chain
Tetrix max chain breaker tool

Andymark $430.00

Planetary GearMotor Bracket (am-2197) x2
PWM Connector Kit (am-2817)
Logitech Extreme 3D Pro USB Joystick (am-2237)
Assorted Heat Shrink Tubing Kit, Red, 127 Pieces (am-2861)
REV Robotics 1" Extrusion, 6ft (am-2901) x3
Assorted Rev Extrusion Brackets x36
REV, 3/8" bore V-groove Ball Bearing (am-2914) x4
#25 Connecting Link for Roller Chain (am-0371) x10
040.5-DP Bimba Air Cylinder w/ nut (am-0292)

Grainger $800
I dont have the full list but it included
1x2 aluminum tubing 6ft x6
1x1 aluninum tubing 6ft x4
1/4 inch rivets
lazy tong rivet tool
and a crap ton of heavy duty steel corner braces for structure.


is all that good enough to build the robot specifically the chain parts as we dont have many parts spare in the shop.

I saw screws that went through chain to connect it to the elevtor what is that called.

We are trying to something similar to team 3940.

thanks
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Unread 08-05-2015, 21:27
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Re: Design Help for offseason bot

If you're using #25 chain, buy the Dark Soul chain tool from team 221. It allows you to break and reconnent #25 chain without using hardware.
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Unread 08-05-2015, 21:32
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If you're using #25 chain, buy the Dark Soul chain tool from team 221. It allows you to break and reconnent #25 chain without using hardware.
It's out of stock which is why we bought the other chain tool.
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