2015 Lessons Learned: The Negative

[KevinRo]

Originally Posted by PurpleNinja88

Encouraging these lower level events to try and achieve quality video as a goal would be great. Talking with the AV crew from PNW several times, I know it is a lot of work and acquiring the quality equipment they have is not necessarily cheap either. But if FIRST could help support teams in finding the funding, resources, and volunteers to pull it off would be a good start.

I am happy there is so much interest in this subject. I believe that a great stream adds immense value to our events, which is why we (PNW) put together a strong video system and team. It allows others to be avid fans. It allows for schools across the region to show large numbers of students the dream of FIRST: To give recognition to science and technology.

The issue for FIRST is that video production is not in their core competencies. Shouldn't be either, they have enough to do. When they outsource the video production to others, the costs are surprising. It was cheaper for me to purchase all of the equipment for the PNW streaming setup than it was to hire a professional crew for a single event. Since we do 11 FRC events a year, the value proposition is quite reasonable. It cost us less than $1500 per event the first year. Subsequent years have about a 10% replacement / repair rate. So we spend about $3,000 a year (we have two full systems) in replacement cables and other enhancements.

To make this successful, a new cache of volunteer knowledge is required. The PNW took this on a couple of years ago knowing that a few dedicated individuals and a handful of students could put together a high class broadcast.

Our equipment is very reasonable quality, simple to use, and is good for 4 to 5 years. We have finished our second year. Each setup cost about $16,000 to put together. I shopped explicitly for equipment that would be suitable to be run by students, yet meets the standards for broadcast quality. As such, we end up with about 8 volunteers a week. Three of them need some level of training, and one technical director to help with the details needs a substantial (yet very doable) amount of training.

I am open to sharing everything we know with the greater FIRST community. FIRST is actively looking into how to improve the stream quality at all FRC events. Sometimes doing it with knowledgeable volunteers is a better approach. Keep in mind, most of the staff at an FRC event are volunteers. Integrating the volunteers in with the A/V company (Three Rivers, Sargent, or other local guys) isn't really a problem. It requires a set of volunteers to step forward and own it. Each show requires at least one adult to take ownership and to lead a group of other volunteers (adults and students)

Are you that person?

Kevin Ross
PNW District Chairman

[kgargiulo]

Originally Posted by Siri

And publish official CAD of the arena (or at least the field).

PTC has made a full 3d model of the field available every season for many years. You can measure anything from it. You don't even need to use Creo for your CAD system, as you can install free lightweight visualization software or the full blown Creo and just use it as a viewer. Measurement works either way.

It is usually available right at kick off, just like the KOP CAD models. Sometimes it is a little later, GDC doesn't release it to PTC any earlier than the rest of us, so the unique features have to be modeled before being posted.

Our team has simulated robot position/clearance digitally before we cut the first piece of metal, bUT weve only scratched the surface of simulation. I think there is a lot of opportunity for growth and learning in the area of a "digital twin" robot among FRC teams.

Disclosure: I work for PTC. Nothing above depends on whether you use our software to model your competition robot, its free for everyone in FIRST. Including student home use.

[BlueLipstick]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

To the suggestions that we smaller teams should just suck it up and get in there and save seats like the big boys:

No.

My proposed solution would be adding an additional "No Saved Seats Period" seating zone around the current match team viewing area. Preferably with large-print easy to read signs and an usher or two to cut down on arguments. Teams would be welcome to reserve space outside of this zone as a home base, but seat saving in the zone would be banned or strictly curtailed to only support scouting teams (1-2 seats per person, up to 4 saved seats per team). This would obviously take some tweaking, but I think it'd work a bit better than the jungle rules that currently seem to reign in the stands.

That's probably the best solution I've heard so far. The scouting excuse is the most common, and it makes sense that scouts need good seats. This solution would also end the incessant battle between teams standing up and cheering and scouts in the back yelling for them to sit.

[tcjinaz]

Originally Posted by Louis_

People actually cheered when those stacks fell over? That's just terrible, I'm so sorry. You guys are an amazing team and constantly inspire me, I hope that doesn't bring you guys down too much.

"We're fighting for our right to boo the Dodgers"
(see a few WWII movies)

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Seat saving was a problem. I know it's theoretically not allowed, but having to explain...

My proposed solution would be adding an additional "No Saved Seats Period" seating zone around the current match team viewing area. Preferably with large-print easy to read signs and an usher or two to cut down on arguments. Teams would be welcome to reserve space outside of this zone as a home base, but seat saving in the zone would be banned or strictly curtailed to only support scouting teams (1-2 seats per person, up to 4 saved seats per team). This would obviously take some tweaking, but I think it'd work a bit better than the jungle rules that currently seem to reign in the stands.

I agree with this sentiment. I've posted about this in the past. FIRST is being naive if they believe that "no saving seats" can be enforced. In fact it will lead to chaos if truly adhered to as individuals would have to take everything with them when they went to the restroom and find a new seat when they come back. The real answer is to better organize the seat allocations.

My proposal is as follows. Now that FIRST is giving badges to everyone they can use those badges to allocate seating.

- Each team is allocated a set of seats for scouts in the lower area between the arena end lines. Teams can claim up to 10 or 12 seats (that's a pretty typical true scouting crew size). The teams will inform FIRST beforehand of how many seats they need, and FIRST will segment off those areas. They can rotate scouts through those seats from their other seating sections (see below). Most importantly--no "spirit" displays are allowed in this section. Those sitting in these seats are part of the competitive team and this section should be considered part of the competitive area.
- A section along the front 2 rows is allocated for VIPs and other with special badges. It is important not to OVER allocate the numbers of these seats.
- Non-scout members of the teams can save up to 20 seats in the larger area surrounding the scout area. Spirit displays are allowed in this area. The number of seats saved may be set as a proportion of the badges issued to the team. FIRST should know the seat count for
- Open seating is available outside of this area. No seat saving is allowed in that area.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Louis_

People actually cheered when those stacks fell over? That's just terrible, I'm so sorry. You guys are an amazing team and constantly inspire me, I hope that doesn't bring you guys down too much.

That was the nature of this year's game and the result of having lack of defense. Basing advancement entirely on cumulative performance instead of win/loss further exacerbated this.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

That was the nature of this year's game and the result of having lack of defense. Basing advancement entirely on cumulative performance instead of win/loss further exacerbated this.

I think someone said this earlier: the game should be renamed Schadenfreude rush

[JimInNJ]

Originally Posted by KevinRo

I am happy there is so much interest in this subject. I believe that a great stream adds immense value to our events, which is why we (PNW) put together a strong video system and team. It allows others to be avid fans. It allows for schools across the region to show large numbers of students the dream of FIRST: To give recognition to science and technology.

The issue for FIRST is that video production is not in their core competencies. Shouldn't be either, they have enough to do. When they outsource the video production to others, the costs are surprising. It was cheaper for me to purchase all of the equipment for the PNW streaming setup than it was to hire a professional crew for a single event. Since we do 11 FRC events a year, the value proposition is quite reasonable. It cost us less than $1500 per event the first year. Subsequent years have about a 10% replacement / repair rate. So we spend about $3,000 a year (we have two full systems) in replacement cables and other enhancements.

To make this successful, a new cache of volunteer knowledge is required. The PNW took this on a couple of years ago knowing that a few dedicated individuals and a handful of students could put together a high class broadcast.

Our equipment is very reasonable quality, simple to use, and is good for 4 to 5 years. We have finished our second year. Each setup cost about $16,000 to put together. I shopped explicitly for equipment that would be suitable to be run by students, yet meets the standards for broadcast quality. As such, we end up with about 8 volunteers a week. Three of them need some level of training, and one technical director to help with the details needs a substantial (yet very doable) amount of training.

I am open to sharing everything we know with the greater FIRST community. FIRST is actively looking into how to improve the stream quality at all FRC events. Sometimes doing it with knowledgeable volunteers is a better approach. Keep in mind, most of the staff at an FRC event are volunteers. Integrating the volunteers in with the A/V company (Three Rivers, Sargent, or other local guys) isn't really a problem. It requires a set of volunteers to step forward and own it. Each show requires at least one adult to take ownership and to lead a group of other volunteers (adults and students)

Are you that person?

Kevin Ross
PNW District Chairman

I couldn't agree more that FIRST streaming has been spotty at best. I'm curious about where you get a clean outbound path at all of these different venues? Do you contract with a local carrier for temporary bandwidth, or do all of your venues have sufficient bandwidth available to provision your outbound stream in addition to all of the normal traffic?

Professional curiosity requires me to ask about your hardware setup. Do you stream HD or standard Def? How many cameras, lockoff, tripod or handheld? Do you take the interface from the scoring system? How big does your car/truck need to be to haul all of this gear around? What switch/SEG? Do you carry lighting as well? Sorry for all the questions, I'm preparing for a local group request that goes " Hey, you do video stuff at work, what can you do for us???"

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by JimInNJ

I couldn't agree more that FIRST streaming has been spotty at best. I'm curious about where you get a clean outbound path at all of these different venues? Do you contract with a local carrier for temporary bandwidth, or do all of your venues have sufficient bandwidth available to provision your outbound stream in addition to all of the normal traffic?

Professional curiosity requires me to ask about your hardware setup. Do you stream HD or standard Def? How many cameras, lockoff, tripod or handheld? Do you take the interface from the scoring system? How big does your car/truck need to be to haul all of this gear around? What switch/SEG? Do you carry lighting as well? Sorry for all the questions, I'm preparing for a local group request that goes " Hey, you do video stuff at work, what can you do for us???"

Kevin may not make it back for awhile so I'll answer the questions that I can.

The stream is HD.
I believe we have 3 Cameras though sometimes some of the students supplement that with their own gear. Typically 2 are on tripods and one is available for handheld use.

Yes they connect to the FMS to get the score overlays.

We haul it around in a 53' trailer, but the bulk of the video equipment is in a road case aprox 2'w x 6'l x 5'h, there is a second one of the same size that is for the Audio equipment. Projectors fit in another case that has space and the screens ride on top of the Video and Audio cases. We also have a 2'w x 8'l x 3'h road case that holds the tripods for the speakers and projectors. I know that the IN district has a similar set up and I believe they haul it around in cars since the AndyMark truck that is used to haul the fields does not have room to add another road case.

No additional lighting is used.

Kevin does have a list with all of the equipment that is used which he is supposed to dig up and forward to me for the areas that are joining, or thinking about joining, the district system for the 2016 or 2017 season. When I get that I can post it.

[JimInNJ]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Kevin may not make it back for awhile so I'll answer the questions that I can.

The stream is HD.
I believe we have 3 Cameras though sometimes some of the students supplement that with their own gear. Typically 2 are on tripods and one is available for handheld use.

Yes they connect to the FMS to get the score overlays.

We haul it around in a 53' trailer, but the bulk of the video equipment is in a road case aprox 2'w x 6'l x 5'h, there is a second one of the same size that is for the Audio equipment. Projectors fit in another case that has space and the screens ride on top of the Video and Audio cases. We also have a 2'w x 8'l x 3'h road case that holds the tripods for the speakers and projectors. I know that the IN district has a similar set up and I believe they haul it around in cars since the AndyMark truck that is used to haul the fields does not have room to add another road case.

No additional lighting is used.

Kevin does have a list with all of the equipment that is used which he is supposed to dig up and forward to me for the areas that are joining, or thinking about joining, the district system for the 2016 or 2017 season. When I get that I can post it.

Thanks Eric, I appreciate the fast response. I'm guessing that your equipment rides in the truck with the field? I'm looking forward to seeing the equipment list and/or pictures of the setup. I'm still curious about the Internet access that you use to get out of the venues, as I would think that would be the biggest variable . . .

[Metonym]

Originally Posted by JimInNJ

Thanks Eric, I appreciate the fast response. I'm guessing that your equipment rides in the truck with the field? I'm looking forward to seeing the equipment list and/or pictures of the setup. I'm still curious about the Internet access that you use to get out of the venues, as I would think that would be the biggest variable . . .

Remember that we mainly host events at highschools, those schools have internet points that we can easily hook into. The site host can generally get permission to use the internet from the school administration. Other venues like the coliseum in Portland are outside of my knowledge.

Van Buren was wrong on one account, we rarely have a mobile camera. Usually the third camera is a full field shot. Kevin sometimes brings in his mobile cam, but not to all events. Getting usable footage from it is another problem. Students need a lot more training with it that isn't just verbal commands from the switcher.

[MsKutz]

Originally Posted by cmrnpizzo14

It's the highest rookie seed award, not the highest rookie score. In previous years it was the exact same way with W/L (actually was worse in previous years since W/L could be more easily luck based).

If you are going to combine fields for awards, then both fields should have been reranked together to give out this award.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by JimInNJ

Thanks Eric, I appreciate the fast response. I'm guessing that your equipment rides in the truck with the field? I'm looking forward to seeing the equipment list and/or pictures of the setup. I'm still curious about the Internet access that you use to get out of the venues, as I would think that would be the biggest variable . . .

I sent you an email about the equipment that we use. Yes it just goes in the trailer with the rest of the equipment used to produce the event. I should be able to get a picture of the cases in the next couple of days that I'll forward to you.

[Breakaway3937]

Mr V, do you mind sending me that list as well. That would be great!

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by matan129

I don't quite agree with you. Although I think autonomous shouldn't fully determine the winner of the match - it is no fun knowing who'd win after 15 seconds - I must say the programming in FRC is in general almost trivial.

<snip>

So, to wrap up - yes, it may be better to let the auto be a little less crucial but programming must be kicked up a notch.

Alright. So what do you want from teams? What do you expect?

My team didn't get a programming mentor until our 6th year as a team. And yet we had placed second place at multiple competitions beforehand - many factors were involved in us ending second place rather than first, and while programming was one of them, it was never the predominant factor as to why. We taught ourselves everything we could about control systems, and we actually never got PID fully functional until a programming mentor joined the team - even with 3-4 programmers, one of which is now at an Ivy for CS, so it isn't like we're struggling to build the code.

When kids aren't taught Calculus until junior (2 years ahead of schedule) or senior year (1 year ahead), it's kinda difficult to introduce advanced control systems in addition to learning the ins and outs of coding a robot. Coding a robot is far different than your standard software programming, which is what we are taught in our CS classes offered here.

Sure, it may seem simple to write driveTrain.drivePID.setXDistance(4.0), but it isn't that simple when you're just starting out. In addition to a plethora of other factors going on within the team - for example, we spent a very long time on design this year - it's not really simple to just magically develop a brand new, state of the art, never-before-seen control system.