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  #151   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-05-2015, 08:50
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Not specifically aimed at you, but you happened to be handy.

For all those who voted 5, would you care to share "undecided (at this time)", "withholding judgement", or "don't care" status at the time of the survey, and have you changed your response at this point?

../snip...
I don't actually remember where I put my mark, but I was somewhere between the 4-6 range.
The 2 event championship was definitely not my preference, but I think it is/was probably the lesser of several evils.
I am generally in the same boat from the alternative 2 event proposals. Not terribly for or against any of them.
I was happy in this blog that they will be discussing with teams possible events mixing strategies. This was actually my biggest concern with the rollout was that there were not be an allowance for mixing. I think Hall of Fame teams should probably get to rotate events. Same with "founders". though I would like if they could keep them at a reasonable balance (no more than a 1/3 to 2/3 ratio).

I have hope that they will do a summer event, and work with teams to find a way to make that work well. I have thoughts on how they could do that, and will see if some of those can be implemented.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 09:15
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

I think it's great that FIRST has tried to survey teams, and I thank them for that. But I would like to point out that two championships will completely ruin the prestige of going to champs. This happens in two ways, one, the obvious way, when you get an award at half champs, it's not really winning the award, it's sharing the award. If FIRST really trying to be a sport for the mind, it can't say it has a superbowl because there are two trophies. How are winners going to explain what happened? "oh our robot's the half best in the world"? How can we make it loud when we aren't sure what we are. Are there any winners in two champs? Or just two finalists?
The second way prestige would be affected is qualifying. I have gone to champs twice, and no matter how we did it was really inspirational for me. I have to commend FIRST, that organization that we still all know and love, for adhering to its mission statement and inspiring twice the amount of people. It's great that FIRST is growing and that it is accomodating for its growth. But with more teams qualifying for worlds through regional points, what is the drive going to be to build the best robot, or make it loud to the world? Why go for prestigious positions such as regional robot winner our chairman's winner? Why not just actually care about the safety award a few times and make it to half champs? In the end, we're actually uninspiring teams and people.

I really like FIRST and I love everything it has done for me, my FLL kids, everyone involved, but I don't want to see this awesome organization ruined because it can't scale up properly. I want to be able to come back and be proud that I had the opportunity to graduate from an amazing program. Two champs will definitely uninspire more people than it will inspire. No one wants to say that they are half winners. And again, I have to applaud FIRST for their efforts to get feedback from teams.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 09:19
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

My feedback for Frank and FIRST:

1. Students are the main stakeholders. If trade-offs are needed, articulate the pros and cons factually and consult them. (just like the patient/doctor relationship.)

2. Surveys are imperfect. But I can generally count on those who care to cast their ballots. There is nothing wrong with building a strategy based on the opinions of those who care.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 09:28
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Originally Posted by Rman1923 View Post
I think it's great that FIRST has tried to survey teams, and I thank them for that. But I would like to point out that two championships will completely ruin the prestige of going to champs. This happens in two ways, one, the obvious way, when you get an award at half champs, it's not really winning the award, it's sharing the award. If FIRST really trying to be a sport for the mind, it can't say it has a superbowl because there are two trophies. How are winners going to explain what happened? "oh our robot's the half best in the world"? How can we make it loud when we aren't sure what we are. Are there any winners in two champs? Or just two finalists?
I'm sorry, I have trouble following this logic. There are only two annual trophies, of which there is only one winner: Championship Chairmans and Woodie Flowers. Everything else has multiple winners. There are four World Champions. There are four Engineering Inspiration winners. Heck, there are thirty-two Division Champions.
So of the two actual single trophies, there has been a TON of conversation about expanding these anyway. There are hundreds of really awesome teams and really awesome people who deserve to be recognized at the worldwide level, but only one of each per year is not enough.
Quote:
The second way prestige would be affected is qualifying. I have gone to champs twice, and no matter how we did it was really inspirational for me. I have to commend FIRST, that organization that we still all know and love, for adhering to its mission statement and inspiring twice the amount of people. It's great that FIRST is growing and that it is accomodating for its growth. But with more teams qualifying for worlds through regional points, what is the drive going to be to build the best robot, or make it loud to the world? Why go for prestigious positions such as regional robot winner our chairman's winner? Why not just actually care about the safety award a few times and make it to half champs? In the end, we're actually uninspiring teams and people.
Why do traditional sports have a regular season? The games don't really matter. We haven't seen a sports champion go undefeated through the regular season in decades (yes I know this statement is not true for FIRST).
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Unread 18-05-2015, 09:32
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

Transitions are always difficult. The USA never quite converted to the metric system. . . .

Ultimately, if we saturate the season with districts (even that is contentious), then district champs would be the primary players at world champs. The remaining participants would be up for discussion: HOF, Rookie, Chairmans, etc. . . .

Would we than go back to a smaller single championship event?
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Unread 18-05-2015, 09:48
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Originally Posted by R2D2DOC View Post
Transitions are always difficult. The USA never quite converted to the metric system. . . .

Ultimately, if we saturate the season with districts (even that is contentious), then district champs would be the primary players at world champs. The remaining participants would be up for discussion: HOF, Rookie, Chairmans, etc. . . .

Would we than go back to a smaller single championship event?
At this point, I don't know if we can tell. Part of FIRST HQ's understanding is the Championship "experience" is what they want as many students to be able to experience as possible. Converting that experience to the district championship level will hopefully be more feasible in the coming future. But what defines the championship "experience"? What does FIRST want to provide to as many students as possible, and how can we make it reach as many students as possible?

While I don't know what the answers to those questions are, the reasoning and logic behind the championsplit, to me, indicates that FIRST is trying to bring the experience by having more championship-scale events. It's entirely possible we go from here to 4 super regionals, and not have a culminating championship event. At least that's what I see is in the realm of possibilities, following the logic of this decision.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 10:25
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
I'm sorry, I have trouble following this logic. There are only two annual trophies, of which there is only one winner: Championship Chairmans and Woodie Flowers. Everything else has multiple winners. There are four World Champions. There are four Engineering Inspiration winners. Heck, there are thirty-two Division Champions.
So of the two actual single trophies, there has been a TON of conversation about expanding these anyway. There are hundreds of really awesome teams and really awesome people who deserve to be recognized at the worldwide level, but only one of each per year is not enough.
Sorry, I was addressing the champion title to the winning alliance, not individual winning teams, but the logic is still the same, you can't exactly say that you are a world champion when there's four other teams claiming the same thing. Truthfully this is gong to happen, and when it does, invitationals like IRI and Cheesy Champs are going to be the real world champs. And that's going to be terrible for morale if you're not invited. If FIRST really wants to inspire the world, they should keep worlds an official event.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 10:37
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

I agree that the poll shows that, of those responding, there's more negative than positive feedback.

That said, it's possible that there's no solution that makes most teams happy. Here's a hypothetical scenario to illustrate the concept.

Frank discussed 22 "product attributes" ("elements of the championship experience"). Let's imagine a universe where FRC teams have decisive product attributes distributed in this way*:

33% - (1) Seeing and competing with the teams with the best robots in FRC
33% - (2) The experience of attending a major, multi-day event with my team
33% - (3) Keeping attendance costs reasonable

Now suppose you created three ideas for Champs experiences, each of which optimized for one of these attributes. Say along these lines**:

(1) Single WW Champs
(2) Super Regional Champs
(3) State Champs

If you polled any one of these using a "do you support this" question, you'd see the same or worse results than the poll that was conducted.

So put yourselves in FIRST's shoes. You need to select the choice that is best aligned with FIRST's goals, and is realistic about the resources that you have available. You are solving a unique problem -- you run one of the largest HS activity championships in the US***. Any of your choices will make a decent sized set of teams unhappy.

*I selected these items because they seemed to be mostly non-overlapping attributes and seem somewhat representative of the points of view I've read. Please don't take this as my reading of what teams actually think or that the percentages are anything but a hypothetical. What will you do?
**These actually map to the three models used in other HS activities in the US, based on the research I did last week.

***I think it's actually the largest, but haven't been looking at data for long enough to say for certain.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 10:56
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Originally Posted by Anupam Goli View Post
...Part of FIRST HQ's understanding is the Championship "experience" is one they want as many students to be able to achieve as possible."

"But what defines the championship "experience"? What does FIRST want to provide as many students as possible, and how can we make it reach as many students as possible?
For me this is the essential point. My team has been to Championship exactly once - when we QUALIFIED to be one of the 400 teams there. A significant portion of the "Championship Experience" in our case was the pride of being part of that elite group. The two components of this portion are the singularity of the group, and the degree of selectivity...neither of which are present in 800 teams divided into two events. WHEN my team qualifies again, I don't want to go to "a" championship...I want to go to "the" championship. And I would prefer to wait until we deserve it again (even if it never happens) rather than lower the entrance bar. I suspect there are many survey respondents, and posters to this thread (like Rman1923 above) who find their definition of the "Championship Experience" and FIRST HQ's definition incompatible.

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Originally Posted by R2D2DOC View Post
. . . .

Ultimately, if we saturate the season with districts (even that is contentious), then district champs would be the primary players at world champs. The remaining participants would be up for discussion: HOF, Rookie, Chairmans, etc. . . .

Would we than go back to a smaller single championship event?
And this is my great fear. Even with a monumental effort to create universal districts, and roll out a suitable championship "feeding" structure...how does FIRST go from two events and 800 teams back to one event and 400 or 600 teams without it appearing and feeling like a shrinkage. Further, HQ was originally saying that the two championships were guaranteed from 17 - 20...in this blog post that language has changed to "beginning in 2017..." removing any possible end date.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 11:55
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Truthfully this is gong to happen, and when it does, invitationals like IRI and Cheesy Champs are going to be the real world champs. And that's going to be terrible for morale if you're not invited. If FIRST really wants to inspire the world, they should keep worlds an official event.
I would actually say that IRI and Cheesy Champs will never be the real world championships. In the grand scheme of things, nobody watches it, and nobody cares. I would be shocked if more than 10-15% of FIRST 's members have even heard of either of these events.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 12:10
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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I would actually say that IRI and Cheesy Champs will never be the real world championships. In the grand scheme of things, nobody watches it, and nobody cares. I would be shocked if more than 10-15% of FIRST 's members have even heard of either of these events.
It's not only about people watching it, but more about finding out who the winners of the world are. I feel like just out of curiosity, invitational events would pit the winners of both champs against each other, to see who wins. That would be cool and fun to watch. When I say they will be the real champs, I mean that we'll find out the best alliance in the world at these events.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 12:53
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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But I would like to point out that two championships will completely ruin the prestige of going to champs.
This is what concerns me too. I love that they are working on ways to get more teams involved, but that can be done through other means. For example, FRC is extremely expensive, can there be more focus on reducing costs instead of diluting the championship? I bet more people and teams would love to be involved if they could afford it. I would think more focus on growing the number of teams could be more inspirational than growing the number of teams at championships.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 12:56
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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This is what concerns me too. I love that they are working on ways to get more teams involved, but that can be done through other means. For example, FRC is extremely expensive, can there be more focus on reducing costs instead of diluting the championship? I bet more people and teams would love to be involved if they could afford it. I would think more focus on growing the number of teams could be more inspirational than growing the number of teams at championships.
FIRST has a system that works as a lower-cost FRC: FTC.
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Unread 18-05-2015, 13:24
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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Not specifically aimed at you, but you happened to be handy.

For all those who voted 5, would you care to share "undecided (at this time)", "withholding judgement", or "don't care" status at the time of the survey, and have you changed your response at this point?
While more information and opinions have been made available over the past month, the unresolved possibility of bringing the two championship alliances together means that I would probably still answer that question the same way at this point in time. But, as I stated upthread, I would hope that that exact same question isn't asked again, because of its ambiguity. Do you favor one championship if it means that there eventually won't be room for the CA, EI, and RAS teams? Do you favor two championships if nothing is done to bring the two winning alliances together to crown one true champion?

I would "strongly agree" that the current one championship model is unsustainable over the long term. But that doesn't mean that I "strongly favor" two championships. I'd jump off the fence for a single championship if the "championship experience" could be replicated one qualifying step below (i.e. at district championships or super-regional type events). But I would be just as supportive of two championships if there was a viable way of bringing the two winning alliances together to crown one true champion. (BTW I don't think the costs of such an event are insurmountable...aside from possible financial sponsorships, raising the entry fee for the 800 teams at the two championships by just 2% would raise $80k that could cover/defray additional travel and event expenses).
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Unread 18-05-2015, 13:53
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Re: [FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

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I'd jump off the fence for a single championship if the "championship experience" could be replicated one qualifying step below (i.e. at district championships or super-regional type events).
I've seen this or similar opinions raised in a few places, including multiple times recently in this thread. For those in Michigan, New England, PNW, and Indiana, how close are your DCMPs to the championship experience? MAR honestly isn't even close, in spite of the fact the on-the-field competition is incredibly high. Don't take this the wrong way, I love MAR Champs, but it's not remotely comparable to Championship. The production value is much more akin to a district event than even a regional competition. There aren't any of the conferences or presentations available to teams (I know FiM has some of these). The scholarship and sponsor availability is minimal. There aren't any of the outside/after hours festivities/community building that's part of Championship. You don't necessarily need all of these things for "the Championship experience" (however we end up defining it), but MAR Champs feels like a bigger district event more than it even feels like a regional competition. It completely lacks the grandeur and ceremony of a Championship.
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