[FRC Blog] Two Championship Survey Results and Path Forward

[northstardon]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

1) Prestige - One event would mean more, it'd be where the sponsors put out their A game because, let's be honest, the top tier teams more than likely spend more and push equipment harder. Recruiters and media would be more likely to be in attendance. And sponsors would want their names associated with the A champs instead of redemption.

2) Qualifying - Teams would be offended they were "relegated" to B Champ. And how would you determine it? Would it be 3rd picks? EI/RaS winners? Point System? None of those are completely fair. And where do CA winners end up?

3) Locations - Part of the incentive for 2Champz is cost savings for teams (I think this is horse crap). This defeats it completely.

4) Inspiration - The "A" Championship would probably contain most all of the "elite" or "inspirational" teams that other teams want to see/compete against/be inspired by. If that's the most important aspect of a "championship experience" for a team, then how enthusiastic are they going to be about settling for second best (but paying just as much)? I'm going to guess that the "elites" and a lot of the "almost-elite" teams that just miss qualifying for an "A" championship will decline the invitation to "B," and save their money in the hope of qualifying for the top tier next year. Which would mean that there would be an even bigger competitive gap between the two events, and even less "inspiration" at the B event.

[Gregor]

A quote from Dean at 4:07 in this video.

Originally Posted by Dean Kamen

I think that most of the kids here in a year or two will not remember which robot won, they will not care which robot lost...

That pretty much settles it.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Gregor

A quote from Dean at 4:07 in this video.

That pretty much settles it.

He really said that? I'm afraid he's lost touch with the program.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Gregor

A quote from Dean at 4:07 in this video.



That pretty much settles it.

I remember every robot that won Einstein since I started participating in FRC. Then again, I may be not your average robotics dude.

I'm an avid sports fan as well, but don't remember who won the super bowl last year, or the college football national championship 3 years ago. I'm not sure if we can apply a greater context to that quote.

[JesseK]

Heavy Sigh. I wish there were a better option than abstaining from the survey. This is the exact crap my company just pulled to skew data in order to convey to 17,000 employees that a "majority" want a 9/80 schedule. It's the same conclusion too, ironically: only 33% of the total favor it.

My Decision Theory Professor would put heavy red marks all across this blog post and give it a 'D' as a paper. She might not have even accepted the original survey for turn-in. '5' cannot be 'neutral' if there are 4 options below it representing 'against' and 5 options above it representing 'for'. There is also no analysis given for whether or not the survey represents statistical significance, but I applaud the effort to analyze on a per-team basis (just keep in mind that 5.2 isn't "in favor"...).

These are the game politicians play. Luckily, we're engineers.

Fundamentals, people.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Heavy Sigh.
....
My Decision Theory Professor would put heavy red marks all across this blog post and give it a 'D' as a paper. She might not have even accepted the original survey for turn-in. '5' cannot be 'neutral' if there are 4 options below it representing 'against' and 5 options above it representing 'for'. There is also no analysis given for whether or not the survey represents statistical significance, but I applaud the effort to analyze on a per-team basis (just keep in mind that 5.2 isn't "in favor"...).

Super, you are the guy we are looking for. Put together a poll with similar questions, but the correct range of possible answers. Then post it on survey monkey and put the link here. Take results for 10 days and report back your findings!!

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

I remember every robot that won Einstein since I started participating in FRC. Then again, I may be not your average robotics dude.

I'm an avid sports fan as well, but don't remember who won the super bowl last year, or the college football national championship 3 years ago. I'm not sure if we can apply a greater context to that quote.

Anupam, I can say for certain that you're not an average robotics dude (nor are you a student ). Don't take CD's investment in the on-the-field success as total community's investment in the on-the-field's success. What Dean said is 100% true. The majority of student won't remember who won on the field in a couple years. Chief Delphi will remember, but Chief Delphi is only a small portion of our community.

Originally Posted by marshall

It's demotivating... that's for certain.

Is it? For the vast majority of FRC it won't change any motivations. The vast majority of teams don't have that on their radar when deciding their motivations, and plenty more will still be motivated to win the highest level awards they possibly can. I don't buy that's "for certain" at all.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

What Dean said is 100% true. The majority of student won't remember who won on the field in a couple years.

Do you have empirical evidence for this statement for students who attended Champs (which is only a small proportion of all student in FRC)? Dean was talking about Champ attendees, and they are more invested than the average FRC participant (and I agree from most of them they won't even KNOW who won much less remember.) I assert with at least as much evidence as you have that those who attended will remember who won for a fair amount of time, or at least will need little prompting to remember.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Do you have empirical evidence for this statement for students who attended Champs (which is only a small proportion of all student in FRC)? Dean was talking about Champ attendees, and they are more invested than the average FRC participant (and I agree from most of them they won't even KNOW who won much less remember.) I assert with at least as much evidence as you have that those who attended will remember who won for a fair amount of time, or at least will need little prompting to remember.

I don't have anything of statistical significance, no. I did text a few members of my senior class on 116 if they remember who won in 2007, and none of them did (with the exception of me, if that counts). One of them had even returned to mentor 116 afterwards.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I don't have anything of statistical significance, no. I did text a few members of my senior class on 116 if they remember who won in 2007, and none of them did (with the exception of me, if that counts). One of them had even returned to mentor 116 afterwards.

I'm not sure that 2007 qualifies as "a year or two" (-quote by Dean). Anecdote: Using 1640 for the past two years would be cheating, but I know most of my students from say classes '11 to '14 could've told you how 469 didn't win in 2010 and (for '12 onward) that 1114 didn't in 2012, even if they don't remember who did. (This is an example of something below*)

--

Dean's next sentence in that quote is: "They leave here with a whole new perspective on the world." He seems to be making the argument that the N people who don't remember who won also don't care who won. I'm not sure this is accurate. Think about what you remember most vividly in FIRST or even in life. *I think people remember inspiration, they remember upsets, they remember crazy amazing things. Using the inability to remember a string of numbers as a proxy for not caring about the elite competition doesn't make sense to me. If we want people to be inspiring by STEM, then the vehicle we're using should be as good at its intended purpose as possible. Dean's quote is in a CNN article entitled "Superbowl of Robotics". Worlds is what people are supposed to watch when they want our Superbowl.

I understand the argument that not enough people see that vehicle right now, and I can accept that HQ sees the Split as a solution to that. I just want it to be understood as a legitimate trade-off rather than an 'any level of play is good enough' or a 'not enough people watch Einstein now, so it doesn't matter how good it is'. (These aren't intended as direct quotes of anyone, least of all Sean.) I guess what I'm saying is, Dear FIRST: near time fix your webcasts, up your production values, improve the Einstein broadcast, help DCMPs and Regionals do the same, up your broad PR initiatives, accredit your conferences so teams can come for teacher PD and student leadership. Then try to tell us as a community that we would will still benefit from getting more teams to an experience that's half of Worlds. You could've helped a lot more people with a lot less mess.

EDIT: Or, you know, what Madison said.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I don't have anything of statistical significance, no. I did text a few members of my senior class on 116 if they remember who won in 2007, and none of them did (with the exception of me, if that counts). One of them had even returned to mentor 116 afterwards.

I can safely say that the majority of the members on our team remember who won champs a number of years back. When I started mentoring in 2012, our team had only been to champs once, but I was impressed at how many students knew who the alliance captains and top teams had been back for a number of years. And our alumni members appear to retain much of that knowledge.

Of course now my sample is biased, but I've developed substantial contacts with both students and mentors across Northern California. The knowledge of the students I talk with about the competitive history is impressive.

And I'll give the counterexample from my own sports experience. I used to follow track & field closely (and still compete after 40+ years.) I may not have been able to immediately recall who won a particular championship 2 years before, but I could with just a little prompting. And regardless, I cared a great deal about the competition as it happened. Kamen's reasoning is faulty if he's using recall ability as a standard for caring about the competition. It's a false metric.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Is it? For the vast majority of FRC it won't change any motivations. The vast majority of teams don't have that on their radar when deciding their motivations, and plenty more will still be motivated to win the highest level awards they possibly can. I don't buy that's "for certain" at all.

Fair enough. Maybe it isn't for you or your team. I can tell you that it is for me and mine. It's been a conversation we've had this season since it was announced and it's definitely going to be a drive towards success for this next season... beyond that, I'm uncertain.

[MichaelMcQuinn]

Even if there are two championships, no matter how diluted they are, teams will STILL try their hardest, and THAT is what motivates the kids.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by marshall

Fair enough. Maybe it isn't for you or your team. I can tell you that it is for me and mine. It's been a conversation we've had this season since it was announced and it's definitely going to be a drive towards success for this next season... beyond that, I'm uncertain.

So you're not going to try and win just because there are two championships? Having to share the championship title with 7 other teams instead of 3 other teams will change your motivations as a team? You'll no longer have any drive towards success if you can only win in Houston and not Detroit?

[David Lame]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

So you're not going to try and win just because there are two championships? Having to share the championship title with 7 other teams instead of 3 other teams will change your motivations as a team? You'll no longer have any drive towards success if you can only win in Houston and not Detroit?

Would it surprise you if people really did behave that way? They do.