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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-05-2015, 15:13
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

From what I have heard in passing over the years, FiM feels that the High School FTC program detracts from potential FRC teams, as running an FTC team is much cheaper and thus more appealing to many high schools.
Since FiMs (apparent) goal is to expand FRC as much as possible in Michigan, they pushed the other programs down to lower age levels to prevent overlap.

That said, IMO one of the reasons FTC has had such a hard time getting off the ground (given that it is the smallest of the FIRST programs), is because the age overlap prevents it from having it's own niche (FLL is generally viewed as FIRST's middle school program, while FRC is viewed as the high school program). If FiM can get enough middle schools on board, you could actually end up seeing a huge increase in the number of FTC teams down the road.

Whether this policy is sustainable or not remains to be seen.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:13
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Allison K View Post
I love data as much as the next person on CD, but the key problem in this instance is that growth statistics will be heavily skewed by the state grant money that's been thrown at FRC and FTC the last two years.

In any case, the narrow eligibility for FTC has been a point of frustration for me for years now, and lowering the FLL cutoff age is also a disappointment. I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project.
I understand that FRC and FTC have benefited significantly from the State Grant money. Is there a possibility this grant money was rewarded due to the effectiveness and potential that the State saw in FiM's structure for the FIRST Progression of Programs? (This is an honest question, as I do not know the details surrounding the grant. I just don't want to write off the possibility that the growth is fueled by a grant that was rewarded, in part, by the advantageous competition structure established by FiM. The two could be related.)

Regardless, FIRST Programs in Michigan have been under FiM's leadership for 7 years now. Growth Numbers over 7 years (as compared to the rest of the country) will give insight into whether or not FiM has proven to be an effective steering committee for either the entire progression of FIRST Programs, only some of them, or none of at all.

This data would in no way discount the experiences and trends each Coach/Mentor has seen in their teams/regions/spheres of influence. I'm simply interested in the macro-level data that can provide a different perspective.

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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:15
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by adias.angel View Post
The power of FLL is not from the competition but from the experience. Going through the research, the leadership and the robot are all part of an great learning and growing experience. I have students that are in 4th grade and it has never bothered them once that there are 14 year old students on the team. They are very happy to learn from the older kids and grow with them.
I'm an alumni of the program, I know the experience quite well. I can tell you by the time I was 13 in the program I was BORED. This jives with other folks I know of who, after years in FLL, wanted to just move on to bigger robots. (This was all pre FTC/Vex)
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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:16
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
I don't have any special knowledge, but I don't see how a team could be stopped from registering for all events. FiM is in charge of all FLL, FTC, FRC events in Michigan, so it seems like that team would have to compete out-of-state. But not allow the team to register at all? I don't think that's possible.

Also, we all know Michigan (/FiM) plays by its own rules sometimes. My thinking would be that FIRST allows regions to do their own thing as a test to see if those regional ideas are good. For example, the district model was pretty good.
We can register but at the tournament we are told that we are not allowed to compete. We did try to go out of state last year but because our address was from Michigan we were told that they could not guarantee us a spot at a competition.

I agree and also worry that this might be a pilot program that will have consequences across the country and/or world. That is why we are trying to get people to speak out now so that FIRST hears us. I know a lot of coaches from all my years here in Michigan and many are afraid to speak out against these changes out of fear that their teams will be punished for it.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:19
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
I'm an alumni of the program, I know the experience quite well. I can tell you by the time I was 13 in the program I was BORED. This jives with other folks I know of who, after years in FLL, wanted to just move on to bigger robots. (This was all pre FTC/Vex)
I agree for some of our students at 13 it's best we move them up to FTC. With both Michigan and US FIRST guidelines we are able to do that.

Michigan on the other hand is now limiting and leaving out the students who are not ready to move up. All students learn at different paces and some are simple not ready at 13 to move up. I don't want to see those children left out.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:20
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by adias.angel View Post
I know a lot of coaches from all my years here in Michigan and many are afraid to speak out against these changes out of fear that their teams will be punished for it.
I'm trying to imagine Jim Zondag with a baseball bat ready to bust some knee caps, but I can't quite picture it...
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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:28
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by adias.angel View Post
I agree for some of our students at 13 it's best we move them up to FTC. With both Michigan and US FIRST guidelines we are able to do that.

Michigan on the other hand is now limiting and leaving out the students who are not ready to move up. All students learn at different paces and some are simple not ready at 13 to move up. I don't want to see those children left out.

So we're not arguing IF there should be a cutoff, since you clearly are ok with a cutoff as has existed for nearly 2 decades. You're arguing is that FiM's cutoff is too low? So this we can put something more than an opinion.

What are the primary differences between FLL and FTC from a student development stand point? Please be specific.

Based on those, what is the typical age at which 80% of students have reached this development?

What, if any sort of accommodations need to be made for the 20% of students that don't reach this checkpoint? For example: an appeals process to "you're in 9th grade you can't compete in FLL even if you emotionally aren't ready for FRC"



Edit: Corsetto - try harder. The mental image is totally worth it.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 15:37
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

FiM has always tried new things for Michigan. The district system was tested in Michigan, and FiM has turned it into a very fluid system. MSC this year is proof of that. 101 of 102 teams having an average of over 100 points shows the level of competition that Michigan has, and I think there's a lot going on in the entire FiM program that assists with this.

These statements are my own and may not be the opinions of FiM

I personally love the system that FiM has. I think this system should be incorporated by FIRST for these reasons:

I believe this system works out so well because every group is interacting with each other. FRC students coach JFLL teams and mentor FLL/FTC teams, and FTC teams are encouraged to mentor FLL teams.

JFLL kids learn are introduced to research and legos, FLL kids learn autonomous programming and presentation skills, FTC kids learn how to build a robot that can directly compete against others, and explore community outreach, and FRC kids do all of this at a very high competitive level. Each program builds upon the previous, and this is why Michigan FRC teams have that level of quality.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I know JFLL, FTC, and FRC teams have increased in FiM every year for a while now. The last FTC State event had to be split into two divisions and move into a new venue, and MSC had 102 teams in it.

As for FLL shrinking, I do not know if that's true or not. As for myself, I would have loved to have joined FTC as a student if there was a team in my school already. The gap between FLL and FRC is huge, and I would recommend every student to follow FiM's guidelines.

Having coached a FTC team that went to Iowa City Super-Regionals, I can go on in great detail of the difference between High School FTC teams and Jr. High School FTC teams. However, I think those students are missing out on the bigger challenge which is FRC.

TL;DR:
I believe FiM has an excellent system, and FIRST should adopt these guidelines. FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 16:07
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

I didn't start doing robotics until my freshman year of high school. I did not go through all the levels of FIRST. While I did not start with FTC, I started with Vex. There was no way I could have jumped straight to FRC that year. Vex gave me a solid knowledge base about the basics of robotics and the competition environment. It would have been way too intimidating to have started in FRC.

Just my 2¢.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 16:08
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Loose Screw View Post
FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so.
This actually isn't FIRST's goal, although it might be a result of FIRST pursuing their stated Mission and Vision.

FiM has been more explicit in their goals to grow and sustain FRC in their state.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 17:10
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by adias.angel View Post
Hi everyone,
For the last year our first affiliate partner in Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition:

https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners

The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. Thanks for your support, Carla
I believe you are violating CD rules for creating a separate account to post this. It sounds to me that you are part of a FIRST team.
I am glad you are bringing something to discuss on CD. However using a sensational title and less than accurate facts and no data to convince people is not the way to do it.
If you want to discuss this, please state all the facts and not just the ones that you want people to know. People outside of Michigan are not going to understand it completely. You are using scare tactics and asking people to sign a petition without giving them accurate and complete facts.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 17:22
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by adias.angel View Post
They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.
I am a firm believer that what works in one region may not work in another. FiM's model works for them. They are not forcing it on you. Why require them to follow what you believe is the right model.

Edit: Woops I misread OP. They have forced this on you. Disregard my argument.

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?
The above argument has nothing to do with growth of FRC. So I don't think data is really necessary to support this claim. Can't really argue with how someone else feels about a decision.

The thread title implies that Michigan will "kill" FLL with its model. I think it's fair to say the title is quite the hyberbole and that Michigan's numbers prove it is not killing the program.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 17:33
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber View Post
...Michigan's numbers prove...
What numbers?
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Unread 21-05-2015, 17:40
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
What numbers?
Michigan had 454 FLL teams last year. Not 'Killed'. I don't have historic data.
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Unread 21-05-2015, 17:46
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?
...snip...
I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike
From this link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VRTZ VE&gid=3

2012-2013 FiM FTC Teams: 57
2013-2014 FiM FTC Teams: 166
2014-2015 FiM FTC Teams: 203

For FLL, I could only get data from last season (454) as well as teams that have already signed up for next year (27).

I as well as many others do not appreciate the inflamatory title (though I imagine it helps get attention). "FiM is growing FTC and FLL, but not following the normal FIRST rules in regards to age limits, but has hugely supported via adminisitering state and coproate grants" just doesn't have the same ring...

I recommend discussing the policy with those in charge. I don't think you will get them to change their minds, but you may get a better understanding of their perspective.
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