Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

[BSV]

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber

Michigan had 454 FLL teams last year. Not 'Killed'. I don't have historic data.

The telling number will be the number of FLL teams/kids involved in FLL next year, since (as I understand it) this change is for next season.

[Ed Law]

Michigan had 352 FLL teams in 2012 and 328 FLL teams in 2013. My numbers may be off by a little but these were the numbers last reported on the FiM website during those two years.

[BSV]

I probably have a different perspective than those from a pure engineering background on this board. As a scientist and an FLL coach, I am impressed with the variety and ingenuity of the research/innovation put forth by FLL teams each year. The non-robot-building part of the competition is something that is only emphasized in FLL, and I don't think that most younger kids (3rd-5th grade) can reach their full potential -- or even have the proper skills -- to create a high-level project.

Because everyone on the team is forced to answer questions from the judges, I've had a group of six very shy 4th-6th graders who turned into outgoing 6th-8th graders by their 3rd year who were self-motivated and able to make presentations to and answer questions from any adults they met. I've had the good fortune to meet the kids and coaches of many top FLL teams from around the world the last two years, and they are a very well-rounded bunch.

I'd suggest reading some of the studies from Brandeis University about FLL and its impact, located on the FIRST Impacts page:

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/impact

I hope that the folks at FiM, who in many ways set the direction of FIRST programs, have done some serious research into what is best for the kids and can share those data with the coaches/parents of the middle school students who will be affected by this drastic deviation from FLL requirements in the rest of the world. If FiM is the organization implementing the change, then they are the ones who should be presenting data on why it is needed rather than making a top-down decision that is forced on everyone just to make it fit a certain age/program progression. It seems like a majority of folks on here hate when top-down decisions from FIRST HQ are pressed onto everyone with no input or consensus from the community, so I am not sure why this would be any different than that.

Travis

[Sperkowsky]

Our school district is looking at expanding first to the other schools and this is the structure they want to follow. As a small district we have to keep to one program per school and Im sure this is what fim is thinking too. Don't see anything wrong with it.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Our school district is looking at expanding first to the other schools and this is the structure they want to follow. As a small district we have to keep to one program per school and Im sure this is what fim is thinking too. Don't see anything wrong with it.

You don't see a difference between electing to implement programs in the same manner as someone else and being prohibited from implementing them differently?

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Madison

You don't see a difference between electing to implement programs in the same manner as someone else and being prohibited from implementing them differently?

I agree with FIM's structure to begin with and I think it's too late but I would vote on first themselves adopting it. Program overlaps never make much sense for instance.

I have a friend from gymnastics who goes to a school where they have a large frc program and 3 ftc programs. He was involved with ftc throughout middle school and loved it. Going into high school he continued ftc and expected to go to frc when the ftc season ended. However they got to the next round of competition. So now he has the option to go away from a program he has been doing for 3 years when they need it most or to graduate to the more advanced program to be a rookie member. With a lot of thinking he chose to do ftc for one last year. The next year he started with the same thing. Doing ftc and expecting to go to frc for the season. However the same thing happened. They made it to the next level and bam he had to choose ftc again once again missing out on the frc experience. This year I convinced him to come over to frc however now he is starting out doing frc as a junior. He lost 2 years of an experience that is much more intense, advanced and life changing. Not to say ftc isnt any of those things but it doesn't compare to frc.

That's where my view comes
from.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

... an experience that is much more intense, advanced and life changing. Not to say ftc isnt any of those things but it doesn't compare to frc.

I recommend reading some of the great Summaries posted on FIRST Impact Page. In Particular, the 2011 Summary comparing FRC and FTC impact. The two compare quite equally in may categories. Of course, there are some notable differences between the two programs. I highly recommend reading through and seeing for yourself.

-Mike

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

I recommend reading some of the great Summaries posted on FIRST Impact Page. In Particular, the 2011 Summary comparing FRC and FTC impact. The two compare quite equally in may categories. Of course, there are some notable differences between the two programs. I highly recommend reading through and seeing for yourself.

-Mike

I read through it. I can honestly say I was surprised so thanks for the read. However it all depends on the program. I can see how in an frc team people can get swept to the side. In my team we have about 10 regular members less then the average ftc team. When I say regular I mean more then once a week.

Everyone has a part on our team and its usually somewhat substantial. Fgs look at my job list. However when I go to competitions and see the members sitting in the stands who don't know the difference between autonomous and teleop I see where this article is.

Ftc seems to be on average more engaging but frc if engaged properly can be much closer to the real world and provide experiences like none other.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I agree with FIM's structure to begin with and I think it's too late but I would vote on FIRST themselves adopting it. Program overlaps never make much sense for instance.

I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster*, so we should create a law mandating that everyone believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. No one gets a choice, you're forced to do it.

*This post is purely an example, I will not admit to believing in or not believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[gblake]

Hmmm,

Is this discussion about FIRST robotics programs? If it is, I think I know where to find the rules governing them.

Or

Is this discussion about Michigan robotics programs? I don't know where to find the rules governing them; but I would be interested in seeing them.

AND...

I'm starting to think my prediction that blurring the line between programs governed by FIRST rules, and programs governed by state rules (see the two or three CD threads with a theme of Yippee! our State has a robotics championship sanctioned by the state educational system...) would cause train wrecks; is being confirmed.

The sort of confusion being discussed in this thread is what you risk when when you try to blend a program like FIRST with with one run by some other organization that has overlapping, but not identical goals.

The risk is especially high when that other organization is (or is tightly tied to) a state educational bureaucracy (aka something with a lot of psychic momentum, and plans of its own). Remember, FRC/FTC/FLL are *not* *not* *not* school programs.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

• I personally believe that if I can't find "it" in a ____ rulebook, or in an officially published exception (published by ____ and not by anyone else), then "it" is not a rule at ____ events.
• Complementing that, if an event enforces rules that aren't ____ rules, the event isn't a ___ event.

You can fill in the blank with whatever entity you want: Little League Baseball, Prince William County Intermural Basketball, Dancing With the Stars, FIRST, VRC, or whatever you want.

Blake

[Lisa Perez]

Before this past season, I coached 8 years-worth of 7th and 8th grade FLL teams. Like many others upon hearing about the age guidelines, I was extremely concerned about the readiness of late elementary school students for the FLL program and middle school students for the FTC program. I gave those age guidelines a try with 2 FLL teams and 1 FTC team this past season. I'll tell you what - Those students had an absolute blast and have been raving about going through the FLL-FTC-FRC progression.

My main point is - If the resources are there, give the guidelines a try! You might find yourself pleasantly surprised about how well things go.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

I believe you are violating CD rules for creating a separate account to post this. It sounds to me that you are part of a FIRST team.
I am glad you are bringing something to discuss on CD. However using a sensational title and less than accurate facts and no data to convince people is not the way to do it.
If you want to discuss this, please state all the facts and not just the ones that you want people to know. People outside of Michigan are not going to understand it completely. You are using scare tactics and asking people to sign a petition without giving them accurate and complete facts.

Thank you. The entire starting post was rapid-fire generalization, which is both annoying and misleading. If anything, FiM is making a disjointed, poorly organized system into a streamlined, effective one. If FIRST wants to have a progression of programs that actually works, then FiM is going in the right direction by changing the age ranges. It'll probably be a rough adjustment, but it's an adjustment for the better.
FiM isn't killing FLL, here's what they're doing:
1)giving FLL a different age range, one that will even out competition between teams with older and younger students.
2)smoothing out the progression of programs to have no strange gray areas.
3)offering FTC the opportunity to no longer be that awkward stage between FLL and FRC by giving it its own unique age range.
4)pushing students to learn more about complex problem solving and critical thinking at a younger age by putting them in a more competitive setting at a younger age.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Lisa Perez

... give the guidelines a try! ....

Are they guidelines or rules?

Originally Posted by evanperryg

... If FIRST ..., then FiM is ....

Are you talking about FIRST programs or FiM programs?

FIRST has a set of programs and FIRST publishes rules that govern them.

What does FiM have/do?

I realize that I am being a gadfly, but these questions are the elephant in the room.

[kgzak]

Originally Posted by Allison K

I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project.

I don't really agree with this. Enigma (FRC 2075, FTC 5385, FTC 5391) has two grade school FTC teams and their mentors are the high school FRC team students and some parents. FTC 5391 made it to worlds this year by way of a super regional. I think this shows that grade school students can be mature enough to compete at an FTC level.

About the fact that FIM seems to be pushing out FLL, I personally like the idea of FTC as a lower grade level. I know the big thing is that it costs more to run an FRC team than an FTC team and that there are schools who can't afford to run an FRC team but Michigan has never had very many FTC teams. FRC is growing very rapidly in Michigan and a lot of it is due to the grant money that has come recently but as far as I can remember Michigan has always been a state with a lot of FRC teams. FIM's goal currently (as well as FIRST in general) is to get a robotics program in every high school. FIM wants an FRC team in every high school. By putting an FRC team in every high school there is no more need for FTC teams in the high schools so why not make it in the grade schools?

On the flip side of this, Michigan is turning from being one of the most competitive states to compete at to the the state who has some elite teams, a bunch of average teams and some below average teams. Granted if these teams survive they will get better with experience but many of these teams won't survive. The money just isn't there. These teams might be able to survive as an FTC team though which would give the students the ability to have some sort of STEM hands on education that they otherwise might not have. So maybe we do have FTC and FRC in the high schools, one is for the schools who can afford the expensive nature of FRC and the other for the teams who can not.

I know that I wouldn't be the same person I am today without the FIRST experience I had, but I don't know if the FTC experience would have effected me as much as the FRC experience did. But some experience is better than no experience.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

I believe you are violating CD rules for creating a separate account to post this. It sounds to me that you are part of a FIRST team.

I have confirmed that this is a new account for a unique person, not a duplicate account.