Go to Post I think there are a ton of teams that would kill for one let alone three engineering mentors (especially one with the knowledge and experience that Rich Olivera has). - XaulZan11 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #106   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 13:52
Koci Koci is offline
Registered User
#0624 (CRyptonite)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 62
Koci is an unknown quantity at this point
Oh geez, please don't make this debate become philosophical now too.

The argument is that teams practicing this collusion intend to look out for their own self-interest at the expense of all the other teams. This is unfair to the teams who have worked hard designing and building their robot, their designing ability, and their strategizing ability.

Certainly all "cooperation and compromise" is not bad. But collusive activities that work at the expense of other, perhaps more qualified, individuals, IS bad.
  #107   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 13:55
Rook's Avatar
Rook Rook is offline
Registered User
#0267 (The Demolition Squad)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 64
Rook is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally posted by JosephM
From what I've seen, many people complaining about this strategy are mostly vet teams who lost to rookie teams with this strategy.

Just an observation.
My team hasn't even played and we are against it.


Gracious Professionalism - It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not or even if you understand it. The practice of aggreements has devided FIRST and has put a black mark on the entire competition. All teams should be gracious and professional and agree not to make these pre-match agreements, just because there's such a bad stink about it.
__________________
Aaahhhhh! The atmosphere! Aaaahhhh!


(Things you might hear a meteor say.)
  #108   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 14:12
Redhead Jokes's Avatar
Redhead Jokes Redhead Jokes is offline
Door Opener Mint Mentor
AKA: Cheryl Miller
#0294 (Beach Cities Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Redondo Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,282
Redhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of light
Quote:
Originally posted by Rook
All teams should be gracious and professional and agree not to make these pre-match agreements, just because there's such a bad stink about it.
Our team is gracious and professional, and I personally don't feel the need to sign a petition. I don't know about the rest of my team.

I wouldn't do something just because there's a big stink about it.
__________________
Cheryl Miller, SCRRF Southern California Regional Robotics Forum cheryl@scrrf.org SCRRF Calendar So Cal FIRST Lego League
Beach Cities Robotics Team 294 Team Mom cheryl@bcrobotics.org
2004 Robot name: Orange Tide
motto: Two Rival Schools, One Team...ride the Tide.
2004 So Cal Chairman's Award, Phoenix Regional DaimlerChrysler Team Spirit Award
2003 So Cal Regional Finalist and Sportsmanship Award, Phoenix Regional Engineering Inspiration Award
2001 So Cal Regional and National Champions, Regional Image Award
Gracious Professionalism Poster
Mint: To invent; to forge; to fabricate; to fashion. Mentor: a wise and trusted guide and advisor.
  #109   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 14:28
DougHogg DougHogg is offline
Robot-A-Holic
FRC #0980 (The ThunderBots)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: S. California
Posts: 324
DougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally posted by Rook
My team hasn't even played and we are against it.

Gracious Professionalism - It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not or even if you understand it. The practice of agreements has devided FIRST and has put a black mark on the entire competition. All teams should be gracious and professional and agree not to make these pre-match agreements, just because there's such a bad stink about it.
I agree. What is the old saying: "United we stand, divided we fall".

If we all agree not to use pre-match agreements, we can get on with our goals of expanding FIRST, helping new teams, and having great competitions.

The problem we are having is that the points reward teams for "colluding" but colluding spoils the game. Therefore we need to agree not to do it. (We also need to get FIRST to change the point system, so it doesn't reward colluding.)

By doing so, we are establishing agreements on the fundamental nature of how the game is played. Without those agreements, we have chaos. To repeat from an earlier post, what would happen if tennis players were allowed to agree to split their first 2 sets evenly with each player winning a set by 6 games to 0 to save their energy, and then playing hard the last set. That would be unfair to the other competitors who were playing their hearts out for all their sets. Any players making such agreements would be kicked out of the tournament. Making agreements with your opponents is not acceptable in a competition which is what Stack Attack is, a 2-on-2 competition.

Please sign the petition at

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=19301
__________________
FIRST Team 980, The ThunderBots
2002: S. California Rookie All Stars
2004: S. California: Regional Champion,
Championship Event: Galileo 2nd seed,
IRI: Competition Winner, Cal Games: Competition Winner
2005: Arizona: 1st seed
Silicon Valley: Regional Champion (Thanks Teams 254 and 22)
S. California: Regional Runners Up (Thanks Teams 22 and 968)
  #110   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 14:29
Adam Y.'s Avatar
Adam Y. Adam Y. is offline
Adam Y.
no team (?????)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,979
Adam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Adam Y.
I have a story about the first match I ever witnessed involving a robot. Last year our robot fell over backwards on its first match. Oddly enough the other team thinking that they have won this thing tried inflating their score so they deployed a mouse to the other side. It didn't work very well and we won by a fluke. I think that first has a weird scoring system that allows this stuff to go on. If the reverted back to a regular scoring system where a team would would get their own points and not the losers this wouldn't happen.
__________________
If either a public officer or any one else saw a person attempting to cross a bridge which had been ascertained to be unsafe, and there were no time to warn him of his danger, they might seize him and turn him back without any real infringement of his liberty; for liberty consists in doing what one desires, and he does not desire to fall into the river. -Mill
  #111   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 14:44
George George is offline
Registered User
#0060 (Bulldogs)
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kingman AZ
Posts: 146
George is a splendid one to beholdGeorge is a splendid one to beholdGeorge is a splendid one to beholdGeorge is a splendid one to beholdGeorge is a splendid one to beholdGeorge is a splendid one to beholdGeorge is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel
Now thats not fair.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is but I hope that it isn't "cooperation and agreements are always bad." That means its okay for the United States to go to war with Iraq rather than use diplomatic channels and its okay for Iraq to evade the UN weapons inspectors. A world without cooperation and compromise is a world where everyone pursues their own self-interest no matter what the moral or human cost and I think thats EXACTLY what FIRST is trying to avoid.

Our team avoid is avoiding these "agreements" because we want to keep a much bigger and more important "agreement" the spirit of FIRST.

Besides, FIRST teams practicing "collusion" are hardly Nazi's.
I did not mean to imply that all "cooperation and agreements"
are "BAD" .........

But that was a shining example of 4 conspirators out to screw
Everyone else......"in their own self-interest"

And NO! I am NOT Calling or Em plying ANYONE is a "Nazi"

Remember, I was talking "THE BIG PICTURE" not just FIRST,
But the VALUES we Teach the Leaders of Tomorrow!

AS for USA/Iraq...... this has parallels to this thread too,

Geo.

P.S. My son is deployed (Medic, ARMY) and I do feel that we have
been using diplomatic channels
__________________
watch the oz, the lbs take care of themselfs
  #112   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 15:06
Solace's Avatar
Solace Solace is offline
Head Hurts. Coffee. More. Now!
AKA: Jake
#0571 (Team Paragon)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Windsor, CT
Posts: 569
Solace is a splendid one to beholdSolace is a splendid one to beholdSolace is a splendid one to beholdSolace is a splendid one to beholdSolace is a splendid one to beholdSolace is a splendid one to beholdSolace is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Solace
Re: On the subject of Stacking

Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Stearns
Stacking bots do have a place in the seeding matches but almost never in the finals @the UTC scrimmage we saw this.

But our Bot can stack pretty quickley and in the semi finals our bot and our alliance partner tipped over (thefirst time we ever tipped) in the second round we still won because our drivers made a three high stack in the final 20 seconds, the other alliance HAD to knock it over but couldn't get to the top in time. WIN!!

Team 236 Techno Ticks !!!!
(doing ok this year)
Yeah, and you forgot to mention one of your opponents was completely dead, and the other had a malfunctioning arm. That stack was hardly the reason you won that match.
__________________
...What is a man,
If the chief good and market of his time
Be but to sleep, and tool? A nerd, no more.

2004 UTC New England #2 seed
2004 UTC New England Champions with 716 & 230
2004 Archimedes #2 seed, undeafeated in Qualifiers (for what its worth)


Jake
Team Paragon #571
  #113   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 16:12
Bill Moore's Avatar
Bill Moore Bill Moore is offline
Iv2gr8sons
AKA: Be More
FRC #0365 (Miracle Workerz)
Team Role: Team Spirit / Cheering
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 461
Bill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Bill Moore
Stacking Bots in the Finals???

Originally posted by Gary Stearns
Quote:
Stacking bots do have a place in the seeding matches but almost never in the finals @the UTC scrimmage we saw this.
You need to go back and watch the NASA archive of Annapolis.

Alliance 7 came from behind to win their second Quarterfinal match by having a stack of 3 bins and 23 additional bins in their scoring zone. Final score 69 - 68. STACKS COUNT!!!
Alliance 7 came from behind again to win their second Semi-Final match by having a stack of 4 bins and 14 additional bins in their scoring zone. Final score 81 - 45. STACKS COUNT!!!
In the second match of the finals, Alliance 7 failed to get a stack made and lost the championship. If just one stack of 2 bins was made they would have come from behind in all three elimination matches to win the championship. (Do the math.) STACKS COUNT!!!

We have video of Dean jumping out of his chair after the Quarter and Semi final matches to check the thrilling ending of each of those come from behind victories. Bottom line is STACKS COUNT AT ALL TIMES!!!
  #114   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 16:50
Don Knight's Avatar
Don Knight Don Knight is offline
Registered User
no team (Az Regional Planning Committee)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Yuma, Arizona
Posts: 191
Don Knight is just really niceDon Knight is just really niceDon Knight is just really niceDon Knight is just really niceDon Knight is just really nice
Cooperation is in the "Spirit of FIRST"

I don't know what the fuss is all about, some teams have found that there is a strategy within the game that others have failed to recognize. The problem or flaw isn't with the team who has been wise enough to discover it, it's a flaw within the game and/or the rules. Don't blame teams that found it.

Four teams working "Together" to gain high qualifying points, I believe is fair more "gracious" than four teams smashing and beating containers and each others robots to bits.

Don't be upset with the teams who have exposed this opportunity to score, you should be singing there praises for sharing the strategy with you.

Doesn't anyone remember the "Coopertition" Game a few years ago?

I don't think anyone of these teams prearranged who would win only that they would "leave your stacks alone" if "you leave our stacks alone" nothing wrong with that.....
  #115   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 17:02
Wayne C.'s Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Wayne C. Wayne C. is offline
hey- I think we did pretty good?
FRC #0025 (Raider Robotix)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: North Brunswick, N.J.
Posts: 1,530
Wayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cooperation is in the "Spirit of FIRST"

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Knight
I don't know what the fuss is all about, some teams have found that there is a strategy within the game that others have failed to recognize. The problem or flaw isn't with the team who has been wise enough to discover it, it's a flaw within the game and/or the rules. Don't blame teams that found it.

Four teams working "Together" to gain high qualifying points, I believe is fair more "gracious" than four teams smashing and beating containers and each others robots to bits.

Don't be upset with the teams who have exposed this opportunity to score, you should be singing there praises for sharing the strategy with you.

Doesn't anyone remember the "Coopertition" Game a few years ago?

I don't think anyone of these teams prearranged who would win only that they would "leave your stacks alone" if "you leave our stacks alone" nothing wrong with that.....

Sorry Don- You can rationalize on this all you want but it is just wrong. The game this year is NOT coopertition or otherwise we would all have the same color domes on our robots.

Strategic maybe- ethical-no. And FIRST has said as much.

WC
__________________
you want that robot to do what?

Raider Robotix- www.raiderrobotix.org
  #116   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 17:16
Wayne C.'s Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Wayne C. Wayne C. is offline
hey- I think we did pretty good?
FRC #0025 (Raider Robotix)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: North Brunswick, N.J.
Posts: 1,530
Wayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally posted by JosephM
From what I've seen, many people complaining about this strategy are mostly vet teams who lost to rookie teams with this strategy.

Just an observation.

We ARE complaining and didn't lose to a rookie team.

In fact losing to a good team fairly is no big deal. Hey- we lost to you, fairly I hope. We aren't complaining about that and your alliance deserved to move on. No problem there.

I think the people who are complaining are the ones who respect the rules and SPIRIT of the game. It is distasteful to be associated with this sort of behavior.

There are some sore losers out there, but I don't see them in this forum complaining. I DO see people concerned that the FIRST game, like many other things in our society, is being corrupted by a few individuals who think they are cleverly avoiding the rules. They don't want to see FIRST go the way of corporate america these days.

Quite frankly, if winning the trophy by this sort of deceit is that important to them I think we should make a special award for it and present it at the awards ceremony so all can see who the real "clever" teams are.

I bet they wouldn't get much respect from many in the FIRST community

Fixing the game is simply wrong. It offends. It degrades the spirit of FIRST. It shouldn't be tolerated.

WC
(PS- congrats on a great competition. Isn't is great to know your hard work paid off?)
__________________
you want that robot to do what?

Raider Robotix- www.raiderrobotix.org
  #117   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 17:25
Redhead Jokes's Avatar
Redhead Jokes Redhead Jokes is offline
Door Opener Mint Mentor
AKA: Cheryl Miller
#0294 (Beach Cities Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Redondo Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,282
Redhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of lightRedhead Jokes is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Cooperation is in the "Spirit of FIRST"

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Knight
I don't know what the fuss is all about, some teams have found that there is a strategy within the game that others have failed to recognize. The problem or flaw isn't with the team who has been wise enough to discover it, it's a flaw within the game and/or the rules. Don't blame teams that found it.
Don't be upset with the teams who have exposed this opportunity to score, you should be singing there praises for sharing the strategy with you.
Doesn't anyone remember the "Coopertition" Game a few years ago?
That was where I was leaning.

My daughter, captain of the team, just arrived home. She and I hadn't talked about this issue, and now I've learned that our team decided not to sign the petition, which is exactly what I said about myself today on this forum.

Angela did remember similar agreements last year.

Our team doesn't feel the need to blacklist the teams who choose to participate in gentleman agreements, and we'll be making our own decision about whether or not to participate in gentleman's agreements.

And our decision will also NOT be based on a mentor outside of our team threatening that if we follow that strategy we'll lose their company's funding.
__________________
Cheryl Miller, SCRRF Southern California Regional Robotics Forum cheryl@scrrf.org SCRRF Calendar So Cal FIRST Lego League
Beach Cities Robotics Team 294 Team Mom cheryl@bcrobotics.org
2004 Robot name: Orange Tide
motto: Two Rival Schools, One Team...ride the Tide.
2004 So Cal Chairman's Award, Phoenix Regional DaimlerChrysler Team Spirit Award
2003 So Cal Regional Finalist and Sportsmanship Award, Phoenix Regional Engineering Inspiration Award
2001 So Cal Regional and National Champions, Regional Image Award
Gracious Professionalism Poster
Mint: To invent; to forge; to fabricate; to fashion. Mentor: a wise and trusted guide and advisor.

Last edited by Redhead Jokes : 17-03-2003 at 17:32.
  #118   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 17:37
Mr. Van Mr. Van is offline
Registered User
#0599 (Robo-Dox)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Granada Hills, CA
Posts: 350
Mr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Van has a reputation beyond repute
Ok, Ok, enough already

After reading page after page of this stuff I must say I have been quite shocked at the uproar this has caused. As a coach on a FIRST team, I feel I must point out some things:

Gracious Professionalism & "the spirit of FIRST"-
Regardless of where you stand on the issue of "agreements", I believe that we could all agree that the following do not express a sense of GP or the spirit of FIRST:

Threats of physical violence,
Suggestions that some teams may deserve help while others do not ,
Forming "blacklists" (or speaking of revenge),
Suggesting that teams who have not broken any rules be removed from the competition,
Comparing students at a robotics competition to current or former international military/political events,
Suggestions that teams who have not broken any rules are not worthy of playing with in the elimination rounds.

PLEASE. If FIRST is not entirely about winning (or maxing QPs, or trophies, etc.) then lets act like it.

-Mr. Van
Coach, Team 599
RoboDox
  #119   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 17:47
Ben Mitchell Ben Mitchell is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 566
Ben Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute
This is turning into a very heated debate.

Let's put it down a notch, please...

My thoughts: "fixing matches" is not something I would personally do.

However, the strategy of this years game is as follows:Both alliance's stacks standing up = higher points for everyone. My team quickly learned that you only knock down enemy stacks if they knock down yours.

However, my team never even considered (I was the student coach) rigging a match with any pacts or agreements with other teams.

With all seriousness, people need to stop flipping out in this thread: it is getting out of control.
__________________
Benjamin Mitchell

Vex Robotics Competition team advisor (4 high school teams)
  #120   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2003, 18:04
Wayne C.'s Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Wayne C. Wayne C. is offline
hey- I think we did pretty good?
FRC #0025 (Raider Robotix)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: North Brunswick, N.J.
Posts: 1,530
Wayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond reputeWayne C. has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
This is turning into a very heated debate.

Let's put it down a notch, please...

With all seriousness, people need to stop flipping out in this thread: it is getting out of control.
You are right Ben- I've said my piece. I'll back off and get ready for Rutgers ; )

WC
__________________
you want that robot to do what?

Raider Robotix- www.raiderrobotix.org
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2003 matches played shyra1353 General Forum 5 12-11-2003 20:20
11 matches played... ...some thoughts... Joe Johnson Regional Competitions 16 08-03-2003 10:29
Re: Trying not to seed.... (same wish) archiver 2001 8 24-06-2002 02:36
Throwing matches archiver 1999 4 23-06-2002 22:17
What is the length of time between Qualification matches? Randy_Ai Rules/Strategy 2 21-01-2002 16:47


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:03.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi