Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

The Michigan education system has nothing to do with altering the rules. FiM, First In Michigan, is not affiliated with the school districts.

I think many people have missed asking why FiM has done this. I'll take a stab at it. FiM has always focused on spreading FIRST. From the district system to the State Championship that was supposed to be free, FiM has drastically increased the impact, reach, accessibility, and number of Michigan teams.

Dean's vision is to have FIRST in every school. FiM is working toward that, and I think they have decided that one of the steps to having that happen is to set clear break points that coincide with school grades.

It may not be perfect for all kids, and some districts have different definitions of middle school, etc. But I can see the logic behind the move. This is going to create a boom of FTC teams in middle schools as the FLL members move upwards. And with middle schools providing some financial support it will probably be a lot more successful. Right now our local middle school does nothing to support FIRST because their kids go back to FLL and continue competing there. But as a parent you can bet I'll be pushing for an FTC team for my middle schoolers to compete in since they loved FLL so much.

Change is painful, but I can definitely see where this is going. FiM has been offering grants that make starting FLL and FTC teams nearly free. (Not the governmental grants from Lansing).

This makes things appear even worse.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by gblake

This makes things appear even worse.

How so?

[gblake]

Tom,

First, thanks for helping me get my facts straight. The silence from FiM has been deafening here.

Lemme ask a few related questions. Hopefully you are well enough informed to answer confidently:

There is a lot of talk about grant money helping get new team started. Is that correct? Are grant dollars being dispersed for that? For any other purposes? In what amounts?

I read a grant figure of 3M dollars (to FiM? to teams?) somewhere. Do you know if that was correct, and (if it was) do you know whether it was a one-shot deal, or the first of a series (if the programs are successful)?

Where did those grant dollars come from? What/who is the donor?

Who decides how the grant dollars get spent, both big picture, and from day to day? What conditions were built into the grant's stipulations by the donor, and what other criteria have been put in place by the dispersing entity (if it isn't the donor)? For example, are non-school teams eligible to receive some of the $?

Is it true that all FRC and FTC teams that claim Michigan as their home state, *have* to compete within the FiM tournament structures and may not go elsewhere (unless/until they qualify through FiM processes for further competition)?

Is it true that FiM does not allow FTC teams containing HS age students to participate in FiM FTC activities?

Blake

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by gblake

Tom,

First, thanks for helping me get my facts straight. The silence from FiM has been deafening here.

Lemme ask a few related questions. Hopefully you are well enough informed to answer confidently:

There is a lot of talk about grant money helping get new team started. Is that correct? Are grant dollars being dispersed for that? For any other purposes? In what amounts?

I read a grant figure of 3M dollars (to FiM? to teams?) somewhere. Do you know if that was correct, and (if it was) do you know whether it was a one-shot deal, or the first of a series (if the programs are successful)?

Where did those grant dollars come from? What/who is the donor?

Who decides how the grant dollars get spent, both big picture, and from day to day? What conditions were built into the grant's stipulations by the donor, and what other criteria have been put in place by the dispersing entity (if it isn't the donor)? For example, are non-school teams eligible to receive some of the $?

Is it true that all FRC and FTC teams that claim Michigan as their home state, *have* to compete within the FiM tournament structures and may not go elsewhere (unless/until they qualify through FiM processes for further competition)?

Is it true that FiM does not allow FTC teams containing HS age students to participate in FiM FTC activities?

Blake

Here's some publically available information relating to a few of your questions:
http://www.firstinmichigan.org/Docum...IRSTgrants.pdf
http://www.techplan.org/downloads/pd...4_105933_3.pdf

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Knufire

Here's some publically available information relating to a few of your questions:
http://www.firstinmichigan.org/Docum...IRSTgrants.pdf
http://www.techplan.org/downloads/pd...4_105933_3.pdf

Thanks!

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Knufire

Here's some publically available information relating to a few of your questions:
http://www.firstinmichigan.org/Docum...IRSTgrants.pdf
http://www.techplan.org/downloads/pd...4_105933_3.pdf

When I look at those two documents, one the one hand, I am glad that STEM teams are getting funded.

On the other hand, I am sad that we aren't talking about similar Michigan grants for communities that want to participate in more than one STEM program, or in some other single program.

And, I am sad that in addition to not describing grants for other programs, they further narrow communities choices by not helping to start HS FTC teams in Michigan.

I hope someone can confidently answer those other questions I posted.

Blake

[cbale2000]

Of the questions you asked, these are the two I can most confidently answer...

Originally Posted by gblake

I read a grant figure of 3M dollars (to FiM? to teams?) somewhere. Do you know if that was correct, and (if it was) do you know whether it was a one-shot deal, or the first of a series (if the programs are successful)?

Knufire posted some information already that covers parts of this, but I'll try to add a bit. Firstly, the $3mil figure is, as far as I know the entire grant package relating to all FIRST programs that state grants cover. My understanding of the grant process is that teams apply for the grant through their school district who then apply directly to the state through their grant application system (FiM is not directly involved in the state grant). The grant program is in its second iteration and, to my knowledge is renewed in the state legislature on a year to year basis (this season being the second year of the program). The grants are primarily targeted to rookie teams, but state funding tapers off gradually as the team ages (the idea being to encourage the teams to rely on corporate sponsorship as they get more experience). Grants are available for teams of all ages as long as the funding hasn't run out for that year by the time they apply.

Originally Posted by gblake

Is it true that all FRC and FTC teams that claim Michigan as their home state, *have* to compete within the FiM tournament structures and may not go elsewhere (unless/until they qualify through FiM processes for further competition)?

FiM does NOT restrict Michigan FRC (and most likely FTC, though I am less familiar with its structure) teams from playing in events outside of Michigan such as regionals or out-of-state districts where said districts allow it. That said, I am not sure how this affects qualifying for championship, and it's possible that Michigan teams may have to qualify for champs through Michigan events exclusively (though I am not aware of any instances of this being the case, the rules seem to change slightly every year making it hard to keep track of).

Now, one important caveat to this is that teams that accept State of Michigan Grants that cover the cost of their teams registration MUST compete in the 2 in-state district competitions they get as part of that registration or they have to pay back the grant money.
There was one instance this year where a rookie team came to the first day of a district, competed, and packed up at the end of the day thinking that they had covered this requirement. They were promptly notified that it did not and sent a single student and mentor to compete for the rest of their event (other teams that helped fill other roles as the rest of their team was unable to attend for various reasons).

[Loose Screw]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

FiM does NOT restrict Michigan FRC (and most likely FTC, though I am less familiar with its structure) teams from playing in events outside of Michigan such as regionals or out-of-state districts where said districts allow it. That said, I am not sure how this affects qualifying for championship, and it's possible that Michigan teams may have to qualify for champs through Michigan events exclusively (though I am not aware of any instances of this being the case, the rules seem to change slightly every year making it hard to keep track of).

I don't know how the rules specifically handle this, but I remember 27 one year competing at a non-FiM event and winning chairman's, quallifying them for World's. Because they quallified at a non-FiM event, that opened another slot for a FiM team to qualify for World's at MSC.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by Loose Screw

I don't know how the rules specifically handle this, but I remember 27 one year competing at a non-FiM event and winning chairman's, quallifying them for World's. Because they quallified at a non-FiM event, that opened another slot for a FiM team to qualify for World's at MSC.

In 2014, 27 won RCA at Duluth, before proceeding to be CCA (and thus Hall of Fame).

Michigan FRC teams can compete out-of-state (I think a couple went to Indiana this year, for example, along with 27 again at Duluth). Success at Regionals counts toward CMP, but only in-state district events count toward the State Championship (same as with all other districts, not just FIM).

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by gblake

When I look at those two documents, one the one hand, I am glad that STEM teams are getting funded.

On the other hand, I am sad that we aren't talking about similar Michigan grants for communities that want to participate in more than one STEM program, or in some other single program.

And, I am sad that in addition to not describing grants for other programs, they further narrow communities choices by not helping to start HS FTC teams in Michigan.

I hope someone can confidently answer those other questions I posted.

Blake

I thought we are beating a dead horse already. What other questions you have that is not answered that you may be misinformed?
Anybody can approach their State legislature and ask for their favorite programs to be funded. FIRST in Michigan did that a number of years ago to help fund and expand FIRST programs in Michigan with a well thought out plan that has the highest chance of success that will benefit the most number of people in Michigan. Like many other things, it is not possible to please everybody and benefit everybody who may have a narrower interest, but it is for the common good of the whole community in general. I don't understand why you think FIRST in Michigan should have petitioned to get grants for other competing robotics program also. Perhaps I misunderstood what you said.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

I thought we are beating a dead horse already. What other questions you have that is not answered that you may be misinformed?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=108 has 6 question sets. The first three have been answered by the documents; #5 by a post.

That leaves #4 and #6.

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by EricH

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=108 has 6 question sets. The first three have been answered by the documents; #5 by a post.

That leaves #4 and #6.

Sorry, I thought everything was answered by the documents or posts. If not, I will try to answer them. I am not speaking for FiM but I will tell you what I know.

Who decides how the grant dollars get spent, both big picture, and from day to day? What conditions were built into the grant's stipulations by the donor, and what other criteria have been put in place by the dispersing entity (if it isn't the donor)? For example, are non-school teams eligible to receive some of the $?

I am assuming the grant dollars here refers to the State of Michigan grant. This grant is for FIRST Robotics programs only, more specifically FRC and FTC. This was answered in question #1. The money comes from Michigan Department of Education. MDE decide the rules who gets the money and how much with input from FiM so MDE understands what the needs are. I don't know what he means by big picture and from day to day. The money is not a check book that they write checks every time somebody ask for money. The rules are clear who gets the money. Only teams associated with public schools are eligible for the grant. The money is transferred to the school district in monthly installments as part of the State Aid payment to the school districts. To receive money, teams have to field a robot and compete in two district events. They do not want schools to take the money and not compete. I don't know what he meant by donor. The money comes from Michigan taxpayers. Non public school teams are not eligible to receive any of this grant dollars.

Is it true that FiM does not allow FTC teams containing HS age students to participate in FiM FTC activities?
The short answer is yes. However high schools that want to do FTC can still do it on their own, but they will have to compete outside of Michigan or in non FiM sanctioned events. They can also decide to do other robotics programs. FIRST is not the only one available.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

However high schools that want to do FTC can still do it on their own, but they will have to compete outside of Michigan or in non FiM sanctioned events.

Do any of these exist in Michigan with a path to Super Regionals/Champs? It was my understanding that while in theory there were no options for high school aged FTC teams to compete inside Michigan, they could be allowed to compete elsewhere. This phrasing makes it sound like there might be an in-state option.

[Hot_Copper_Frog]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

Is it true that FiM does not allow FTC teams containing HS age students to participate in FiM FTC activities?
The short answer is yes. However high schools that want to do FTC can still do it on their own, but they will have to compete outside of Michigan or in non FiM sanctioned events. They can also decide to do other robotics programs. FIRST is not the only one available.

Up until and including this year, FiM age cut offs have been guidelines. Next year they become rules for competing in Michigan, which they are announcing a year in advance. This year, teams are free to compete within either FiM guidelines or traditional FIRST age guidelines (though it is not recommended).

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Hot_Copper_Frog

Up until and including this year, FiM age cut offs have been guidelines. Next year they become rules for competing in Michigan, which they are announcing a year in advance. This year, teams are free to compete within either FiM guidelines (though it is advised against) or traditional FIRST age guidelines.

That makes more sense. Apologies, I've been on a bit of a CDetox lately.