EV3 vs Vex IQ For Middle School

[AlexanderTheOK]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Our FLL teams have played with Commander on my iPhone. Ignoring the cost of an iOS device (and/or my nerves about letting even our FLL kids play with my daily-driver iPhone), we've found it to be frustratingly limited in capabilities, laggy, hard to get a feel for, and lacking basic remote operation concepts like "when I let go of the joystick, you stop the motors". That combination of cost, risk to personal equipment, and inferior capability is a demo-wrecker.

I can't compare old and new pins because we only have new ones (we bought our kits around the first of June). Since I have the kits here for charging, I went over and popped a pin in for testing. The connection is stronger than LEGO, and I could not remove the pin by pulling on the free end of the pin the way you can with LEGO. However, a little pressure from the other side of the beam on the face of the pin popped it so it would slide out very easily. Different, but not a challenge once you've learned how it works. Hope that answers your question!

In that case there are plenty of alternative applications, most extremely lightweight and capable of running on the aforementioned relatively cheap device.

Again, not saying this is an optimal solution, but keeping it on the table for organizations that are already heavily leaning towards legos or are already heavily invested into mindstorms/ev3. For those organizations, it is a very viable solution.

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by Billfred

I haven't set foot in a VIQC event, so I can't judge how they stack up against FLL. But if I was starting a camp or program to teach a lot of kids, and starting from an empty equipment room? VEX IQ, no question. The price is very strong for what you get, and the ability to run teleoperated out of the box makes a world of difference. (Programming is an important part of the experience, but if there's not enough time to teach it or not enough time to implement it well? That joystick can take a frustrated kid and give him or her a whole different outcome.)

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

Feel free to consider this a stupid question, but can't you just start with autonomous programming projects? VEX IQ even has an entire programming skills challenge for each game, and seems to try to open up the best of both RC and auton worlds for teams. One of the things I like most about VEX IQ over FLL is actually the programming, because it allows text-based RobotC (in addition to graphical and scratch). FLL having only is Mindstorms or Robolab is a pretty big negative for my personal investment.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

Like Siri said, just do autonomous programming.

But you may find that the joystick can help with the auto programming. Lets pick an easy task, move to a block, pick it up lift it, move forward to the next block and put it down. Trying to find the right number of motor turns or sensor info can be done in a trial by error routine. But I've found that it's easier to drive the robot over, pick up the block, lift it and then get a measurement on what the motor/sensor sees. Then plug that value into the routine. Drive once and you are done.

@Karthik: Thanks for the video. I'm good with pushing and pulling pins that are in pieces in my hands, not so much for ones that are deep inside a robot. I use long nose needle nose pliers, but I'm up for something easier.

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by Siri

Feel free to consider this a stupid question, but can't you just start with autonomous programming projects? VEX IQ even has an entire programming skills challenge for each game, and seems to try to open up the best of both RC and auton worlds for teams. One of the things I like most about VEX IQ over FLL is actually the programming, because it allows text-based RobotC (in addition to graphical and scratch). FLL having only is Mindstorms or Robolab is a pretty big negative for my personal investment.

Understand the fact driver control operation is optional but I really think getting 8 year old's to put the joystick down and switch from x-box mode to actually solving problems is a challenge in itself. Text based programming just isn't really relevant to the younger age group but I guess if you're talking about 12+ with prior graphical programming experience then yes I'd have to agree VEX IQ + RobotC is a good option.

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by Foster

But you may find that the joystick can help with the auto programming. Lets pick an easy task, move to a block, pick it up lift it, move forward to the next block and put it down. Trying to find the right number of motor turns or sensor info can be done in a trial by error routine. But I've found that it's easier to drive the robot over, pick up the block, lift it and then get a measurement on what the motor/sensor sees. Then plug that value into the routine. Drive once and you are done.

Watched some kids do this with some FLL challenges the other day. Wasn't too impressed to be honest since they spent more time refining their driving "skills" than actually programming the robot! Ended up taking away the phone they were using for RC. I guess there's a fine balance between fun and learning.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

I guess there's a fine balance between fun and learning.

Yes there is; and thereby hangs many a tale.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

So you'll want to consider the VEX IQ Starter Kit with Sensors (no controller included). http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexiq/pro...h-sensors.html

Or consider the Super Kit with Controller and Sensors, and pre-build the standard drive base and add the front sensor mount using demos of each sensor one at as time to hook the students, as they all have default functionality. That's right sensors do something they are supposed to right out of the box! It's an awesome way to explain what sensors are and what they do to a young student, then quickly move them to programming software to make the sensor do something else/more/different/the same.

The build instructions, control system user guide, and the sensor default functionality videos, all found here http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexiq/documents-downloads provide you with a lot of information on how to use the "out of the box tele-operated experience" as a means of getting kids into sensor use and programming much more quickly and easily than you might imagine.

[galewind]

When we did programming with VEX IQ, we started with automated programming through state machines triggered by touching the touchLED on the brain (this way the bot doesn't move as soon as you touch the run command).

While the gamer in me likes to drive, I think the kids get more out of the programming portion if they learn how to use the sensors first. Then, I each the controller as a means of input. Then, after they learn how to drive TeleOp, they can learn how to incorporate those sensors into the teleop (we had one student use a linkage with a claw on the end, and she put a bumper switch on the bottom to prevent it from trying to "drive it through the floor").

It has been really an awesome experience so far working with VEX IQ. Now, I don't suggest that similar things can't be done with other platforms, but with systems like the tread , chain, and omni wheel systems, the kit seems a bit more versatile than alternatives.

[sgeckler]

There are quite a few detailed comments in support of VEX IQ for middle school curriculum. What about for elementary after-school programs? It seems like the capability of the VEX IQ system is a little overpowering for elem ed after school. Thoughts?

Sam

[zcohen]

Originally Posted by sgeckler

There are quite a few detailed comments in support of VEX IQ for middle school curriculum. What about for elementary after-school programs? It seems like the capability of the VEX IQ system is a little overpowering for elem ed after school. Thoughts?

Sam

I'm going to jump on the VEX IQ bandwagon here and say totally.
1111 uses 11 VEX IQ kits for all sorts of ages. The beauty of the kit is you can tailor it towards what the students capabilities are. If have advanced high schoolers, they can do very complex programming projects and design projects. If its elementary school students just for an hour, they can do basic build and use the preprogrammed options or do super simple programs (depending on what your goal/tech access is).
The kit is seriously usable on all levels. We even have had pre-k kids use the kit bots effectively to play a little game (with lots of support). Im to the point with these kits that I almost wish I had them for my high schoolers instead of the metal VEX simply due to the speed of building and ease of changing things.

[Allison K]

Originally Posted by sgeckler

There are quite a few detailed comments in support of VEX IQ for middle school curriculum. What about for elementary after-school programs? It seems like the capability of the VEX IQ system is a little overpowering for elem ed after school. Thoughts?

Sam

Echoing Zac above me, the best thing about VEX IQ is the extraordinary flexibility (the second best thing is affordability).

I invested in twelve kits to use for day camp, extracurricular classes, and competition teams for grades K-8, but since we've had them on hand they get used constantly. We had them out at Maker Faire Detroit and were overrun with kids nearly every open hour of the faire (nice weather helped), the high school kids use them for prototyping and demonstrating understanding of concepts, the loose pieces are fun for all ages for free building (especially if you have a competition field to use a play & build table).

As far as the original purpose, the experience has been overwhelmingly positive across all age groups. The median age of VEX IQ kids in my summer camps was 8 (entering 3rd grade), and I expect the median age for fall classes/teams will be 9-10 (the fall median is a bit older as the middle school students that didn't need camp as child care in the summer join back up for competition season).

Edited to add: This is only tangentially related to the original topic, but as I was looking at the registration data for median age I noticed that only 12% of the kids in my LEGO programs are girls, whereas 44% of the kids in my VEX IQ programs are girls. Huh. I wonder why the difference?

[Dale]

Edited to add: This is only tangentially related to the original topic, but as I was looking at the registration data for median age I noticed that only 12% of the kids in my LEGO programs are girls, whereas 44% of the kids in my VEX IQ programs are girls. Huh. I wonder why the difference?

I wonder if this could be because the girls are starting at a more even playing field with VEX, at least in their minds. There are no preconceived notions.

With LEGO, some kids (largely boys, sadly) have been playing with them for years whereas with VEX very few find their way into homes. It's new to everyone. LEGO also brings with it the baggage of being a "boy's toy."