Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Siri

Are you sure about that? If that field isn't your area of expertise, can you cite an authoritative source that confirms your opinion?I did, Title IX. ...

I was asking if you what you know about literacy for 9-12 year old students extends beyond having a personal opinion.

I have an opinion about that subject. I think my opinion is reasonably well-informed, but I also know that it's only an amateur's opinion.

Originally Posted by Siri

Can you share what you've read about this curriculum rather than talking around it? From what I've read it's a literacy program trying to use robotics to help keep students reading over the summer. Public libraries run many programs to help keep kids reading over the summer, and the only one I have ever seen that isn't split gender (2 programs) or co-ed is this one that uses robotics.

You appear to have read more than I have. I know I haven't seen any copies of original documents; and until I do, I can only speculate about many things. I suppose I might come across as "talking around" what I know because I have very few hard facts, and I'm trying not to reach any strong conclusions based on hearsay or my speculations.

Blake

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Siri

I did, Title IX. A public school or library (or any other education program) receiving federal funds in the US cannot exclude people based on gender. This is no more legal in the US than labeling a public school class "boys only literacy" and not offering a girls class.

Just to further stir the pot, what is the Canadian equivalent (or do they even have an equivalent)? The original case was in Canada...

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Siri

Literacy for 9-12 year olds is no more a gendered topic at a public school than it is at a public library...If this were in the US it'd probably be a legal Title IX violation.

Originally Posted by gblake

Are you sure about that? If that field isn't your area of expertise, can you cite an authoritative source that confirms your opinion?

Originally Posted by Siri

I did, Title IX. A public school or library (or any other education program) receiving federal funds in the US cannot exclude people based on gender. This is no more legal in the US than labeling a public school class "boys only literacy" and not offering a girls class.

Originally Posted by gblake

I was asking if you what you know about literacy for 9-12 year old students extends beyond having a personal opinion.

You might have been intending to ask that question, but what you actually asked was whether Siri M had a citation for the statement of literacy not being a gendered topic. The point being made was one of law rather than of opinion. (Of course, since Timmins is not a US library, this specific piece of US legal code is not completely relevant.)

Originally Posted by gblake

You appear to have read more than I have. I know I haven't seen any copies of original documents; and until I do, I can only speculate about many things.

The "original documents" on the Timmins Public Library web site have been removed, but while they were there you could have seen them by clicking on the link on the first page of this thread. I don't remember whether or not they made clear the status of the program as a reading program. The TPL June 2015 newsletter is still online, with the "For Boys ONLY!" prominent on page 3. The mention of the session on the first page is admittedly somewhat ambiguous as to whether it's being included as a literacy program along with the others listed in the same paragraph.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

You might have been intending to ask that question, but what you actually asked was whether Siri M had a citation for the statement of literacy not being a gendered topic. The point being made was one of law rather than of opinion. (Of course, since Timmins is not a US library, this specific piece of US legal code is not completely relevant.)

The "original documents" on the Timmins Public Library web site have been removed, but while they were there you could have seen them by clicking on the link on the first page of this thread. I don't remember whether or not they made clear the status of the program as a reading program. The TPL June 2015 newsletter is still online, with the "For Boys ONLY!" prominent on page 3. The mention of the session on the first page is admittedly somewhat ambiguous as to whether it's being included as a literacy program along with the others listed in the same paragraph.

I'll be more than a little surprised if the Title IX legislation or regulations say anything about whether or not keeping boys literacy on a par with girls literacy during ages 9-12 can be accomplished by investing equal effort into the boys and the girls.

When someone says that literacy among 9-12 year olds is not a gendered topic, I think that is what they are asserting, and I doubt Title IX contains any facts that would support the claim.

That is why I asked my question.

I believe I followed all the links that are in this thread, back when they were live. Nothing I read described the actual planned content of the program. The word "robots", or some variation of it was prominently mentioned in an announcement, but there was nothing I read that gave any more detail.

The robots might be inert action figures for all I know, or they might be pre-made motorized devices students would drive, but learn nothing about, or they might be roles that would be assigned to participants in a role-playing game, or ....

I don't recall anything that said or implied that learning about STEM was either directly, or tangentially the purpose of the program. I think many CD folks saw the word "robot" and assuming participants would be learning STEM material. That's an understandable assumption for CD readers, but as far as I can tell, we don't know if that assumption Is correct, or wildly incorrect, or somewhere in-between.

That is why I asked my question.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by gblake

The robots might be inert action figures for all I know, or they might be pre-made motorized devices students would drive, but learn nothing about, or they might be roles that would be assigned to participants in a role-playing game, or ....

I got the distinct impression that Lego Mindstorm was to be featured in the session.



Here's some more information from the library by way of a local radio station:

Timmins Public Library Chair and City Councillor Mike Doody says the entire incident was an “unintentional” “miscalculation” on the staffs part.

He says, this year’s robotics program is accepting 15 children. Currently, he says they have roughly 5 applicants registered so far.

So why was Cash, a young girl, allegedly turned away from the program when there were still 10 positions available? Her mother writes on change.org that Assistant Library Director Elaine De Bonis told her it’s because Cash is a girl, and the robotics program is geared towards boys to improve their reading skills.

Mike Doody elaborates on this claim [embedded audio]

He explains, the Library’s initial focus with the robotics program was to improve boy’s literacy through reading. How? He says, by creating incentives like the Robotics Program, boys are more likely to return to the library after the program is over to read. He says the library has found that girls are more likely to come to the library then boys are – hence, they don’t need as much initiative like the Robotics Program.

Another article from a Timmins newspaper has an actual quote:

“The feeling from staff was that young boys were falling away from reading programs,” Michael Doody, Timmins Public Library Board chairman said. “So, we decided to offer the 45-minute introductory robotics session to 15 boys to keep them engaged in reading.”

[TheBlenderMan]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I got the distinct impression that Lego Mindstorm was to be featured in the session.



Here's some more information from the library by way of a local radio station:

Timmins Public Library Chair and City Councillor Mike Doody says the entire incident was an “unintentional” “miscalculation” on the staffs part.

He says, this year’s robotics program is accepting 15 children. Currently, he says they have roughly 5 applicants registered so far.

So why was Cash, a young girl, allegedly turned away from the program when there were still 10 positions available? Her mother writes on change.org that Assistant Library Director Elaine De Bonis told her it’s because Cash is a girl, and the robotics program is geared towards boys to improve their reading skills.

Mike Doody elaborates on this claim [embedded audio]

He explains, the Library’s initial focus with the robotics program was to improve boy’s literacy through reading. How? He says, by creating incentives like the Robotics Program, boys are more likely to return to the library after the program is over to read. He says the library has found that girls are more likely to come to the library then boys are – hence, they don’t need as much initiative like the Robotics Program.

Another article from a Timmins newspaper has an actual quote:

“The feeling from staff was that young boys were falling away from reading programs,” Michael Doody, Timmins Public Library Board chairman said. “So, we decided to offer the 45-minute introductory robotics session to 15 boys to keep them engaged in reading.”

That makes a lot more sense as to why they only had it be boys only, if it was robotics as we all know it I would certainly have a problem with it but in this case I think they were justified in discriminating as they did. (my personal opinion)

[Madison]

Originally Posted by TheBlenderMan

That makes a lot more sense as to why they only had it be boys only, if it was robotics as we all know it I would certainly have a problem with it but in this case I think they were justified in discriminating as they did. (my personal opinion)

The content of the program is irrelevant given historical inequalities surrounding STEM education.

They could've meant to teach the boys to knit, but if the program is called "Robots - BOYS ONLY," it's problematic and, frankly, pretty idiotic.

[TheBlenderMan]

Originally Posted by Madison

The content of the program is irrelevant given historical inequalities surrounding STEM education.

They could've meant to teach the boys to knit, but if the program is called "Robots - BOYS ONLY," it's problematic and, frankly, pretty idiotic.

If you look at it from our side it does seem problematic but if you look at it from the library's side it makes sense. After all, they are trying to promote reading to boys because they feel like that is a problem that they should try to fix, they didn't want girls to take part in it because it seems that for the most part girls were more likely to go into the library than boys. Also the fact that they only had 15 seats available.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by TheBlenderMan

If you look at it from our side it does seem problematic but if you look at it from the library's side it makes sense. After all, they are trying to promote reading to boys because they feel like that is a problem that they should try to fix, they didn't want girls to take part in it because it seems that for the most part girls were more likely to go into the library than boys. Also the fact that they only had 15 seats available.

There are better ways to do that, however.

What exactly they are may depend largely on the area around the library and what the target audience likes to do, but I would suspect that it's quite possible to find something that would attract boys in large numbers without disenfranchising girls. For example: How many kids do YOU know that would pass up a chance to earn some money by doing something that doesn't take a lot of work? Like, oh, I don't know, reading a book? An announcement that the library (or a sponsor) was offering some (reasonable) amount of money per some (reasonable) amount of books read (subject to certain possible restrictions, let's just say age-appropriate for now) would almost certainly trigger some sort of response. And if you were particularly sneaky, you put in bonuses for who reads the most.

[TheBlenderMan]

Originally Posted by EricH

There are better ways to do that, however.

What exactly they are may depend largely on the area around the library and what the target audience likes to do, but I would suspect that it's quite possible to find something that would attract boys in large numbers without disenfranchising girls. For example: How many kids do YOU know that would pass up a chance to earn some money by doing something that doesn't take a lot of work? Like, oh, I don't know, reading a book? An announcement that the library (or a sponsor) was offering some (reasonable) amount of money per some (reasonable) amount of books read (subject to certain possible restrictions, let's just say age-appropriate for now) would almost certainly trigger some sort of response. And if you were particularly sneaky, you put in bonuses for who reads the most.

The key word there is sneaky. If you host that kind of event it would get people reading for the duration of the event...however there is nothing stopping the participants from staying away from the library afterword. This library wanted to get people genuinely interested in reading by hosting an event designed to attract boys, they just underestimated the outrage that that kind of discrimination causes among some people.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by TheBlenderMan

The key word there is sneaky. If you host that kind of event it would get people reading for the duration of the event...however there is nothing stopping the participants from staying away from the library afterword. This library wanted to get people genuinely interested in reading by hosting an event designed to attract boys, they just underestimated the outrage that that kind of discrimination causes among some people.

Just as a really, really dumb question: Why do you think that using the event that sparked the outrage would have a different effect? There is nothing stopping the participants from staying away from the library afterwards.


Some food for thought:

I haven't been to the library in quite a few years. (Other than in college--where it happened to be a favorite meeting area for small groups, as well as hosting the university computer program's repair shop.) But when I was younger, I went fairly often. And, during the summers, there was usually a kid's program of some sort on a regular basis. When I happened to go on one of the program days, one of the larger "open" areas (give or take a 15'x20' area, I think) was pretty full of kids. But when I went on any other day, there might be half a dozen kids total.

BTW, these programs included such items as the sheriff's department parking a helicopter in the library parking lot (by landing it there, and taking off at the end of the program), or a marine biologist with some sharks, or an illusionist...

Just something to think about.

[TheBlenderMan]

Originally Posted by EricH

Just as a really, really dumb question: Why do you think that using the event that sparked the outrage would have a different effect? There is nothing stopping the participants from staying away from the library afterwards.


Some food for thought:

I haven't been to the library in quite a few years. (Other than in college--where it happened to be a favorite meeting area for small groups, as well as hosting the university computer program's repair shop.) But when I was younger, I went fairly often. And, during the summers, there was usually a kid's program of some sort on a regular basis. When I happened to go on one of the program days, one of the larger "open" areas (give or take a 15'x20' area, I think) was pretty full of kids. But when I went on any other day, there might be half a dozen kids total.

BTW, these programs included such items as the sheriff's department parking a helicopter in the library parking lot (by landing it there, and taking off at the end of the program), or a marine biologist with some sharks, or an illusionist...

Just something to think about.

As I already said, the library wanted to get kids genuinely interested in reading rather then lure them in with money. That is not to say that it will work...it is just what they are trying to aim for.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by TheBlenderMan

As I already said, the library wanted to get kids genuinely interested in reading rather then lure them in with money.

Who says that that wasn't the goal I had in mind? Because if you say that, then I have only one thing further to say: I don't take kindly to people putting words in my mouth.

I'm going to put this very simply so we aren't talking past each other.

--Library's goal: get more kids (especially boys) genuinely interested in reading.
--Library's strategy: Get them INTO the library with some "cool" thing that the kids will be interested in. While they're there, encourage them to READ more.
--Result: ????? (Well, OK, so far there's been one big controversy... but after that's resolved, the question remains.)

The robotics class was the "cool" thing that TPL opted to use. I opted to suggest a financial incentive. Other people can come up with other things, I'm sure.

[gblake]

I heard an announcement that the "Marketplace" radio show would be running a story today about "Patching Up Kids' Summer Achievement Gap" later today, and thought of this thread. Not long from now I expect the story will be available here Marketplace' site, but it's not up yet.

Beyond what is implied by the title, I have no idea what the story will contain.

Blake

[gblake]

Hopefully adding to this thread won't cause us to repeat what has already been said (hint, hint).

Instead, I'm just letting the CD world know that WAMU 88.5 radio station's Kojo Nnamdi show today contained a segment about the bigger-picture subject surrounding the specific subject of this thread.

The site described the segment with this title and description:

Gender Politics In The Classroom

The American Civil Liberties Union released a report arguing that the $20 million Empowering Males of Color Initiative at D.C. Public Schools unfairly excludes female students. Kojo looks at the DCPS initiative, and compares it to efforts in neighboring Montgomery County.

The show's website is here: Kojo Show site

I'm pretty sure that the segment will be available for download/streaming/listening shortly through either the show's site or the WAMU site.

Blake