Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets

[Sean Raia]

I don't think my opinion strays too far from many engineer's views on the issue, but i'll voice it anyway.

If it's not occurring during FRC related junctions I say that it's not an immediate concern of the team.

THAT SAID, if a student or mentor appears to be negatively suffering at the hand of these chemicals it wouldn't hurt for some individuals to talk to them about it and show concern\offer aid. Sometimes all it takes to cure these addictions is the reminder that one is wanted and loved.

It should definitely not be occurring at competition/build season, but if you think about it much of the medication that big pharma shovels into todays youth isn't far off from a lot of the recreational drugs these students could be (and sometimes are) taking. A handful of students on teams in FRC are on prescribed pharmaceutical amphetamine, and yes it does put them at an advantage over those students not on them. Just something to chew on.

If it's just hearsay, I would let it handle itself until it becomes a blatant issue. Self control is best learned through trial and error.

Either way, US drug policy needs a massive overhaul and I think we're starting to see that. The best cure for addiction and reckless behavior is love and kindness, not ham-fisted rules and lectures.

\End hippy-activist rant.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by Sean Raia

If it's not occurring during FRC related junctions I say that it's not an immediate concern of the team.

I think some others have brought up the issue of liability. We could be putting ourselves at risk if a parent or school were to find out that we had knowledge of illegal student activity and turned a blind eye. Hiding or not reporting crimes is taken very seriously.

big pharma shovels into todays youth isn't far off from a lot of the recreational drugs these students could be (and sometimes are) taking. A handful of students on teams in FRC are on prescribed pharmaceutical amphetamine, and yes it does put them at an advantage over those students not on them. Just something to chew on.

I think the focus of this post was about what one should do, both ethically and legally, when students are illegally abusing substances. Taking recommended doses of amphetamines is in a different class of concern from kids getting high or drunk (which is, I think, the point of this post).

[techhelpbb]

There is another wrinkle to this that perhaps should be considered:

There actually (and sadly) exists the chance that the supplier of said illegal substance is an employee of an educational institution:
A fair example might be steroids.

I am not sure there's a perfect right answer - you might turn in one kid (maybe that protects them and maybe it does not) - and the problem will continue to grow until you get to the dealer and those covering for them.

I do agree with the others - if you have direct evidence of illegal substance abuse you should not cover that up - just be sure you follow it up till it gets dealt with.



Also - now that I am done with my work schedule I can link some documents in relation to the previous requests, though again the risk I see here is that at the core statistics can be abused:

1:
"Income distribution and risk of fatal drug overdose in New York City neighborhoods"

Be sure to note this:
"The relation between income distribution and mortality has been controversial (Wagstaff and van Doorslaer, 2000; Mackenbach, 2002). Although studies in the early 1990s demonstrated this relation in a number of ecologic studies, later work suggested that this effect was due to the relation between income (Osler et al., 2002) or education (Muller, 2002) and mortality. Other multilevel studies failed to demonstrate an association between area-level income distribution and mortality (Fiscella and Franks, 1997)."

2:
This is also relevant but I can't find a reasonable public source for it:
"Depressive symptoms, negative urgency and substance use initiation in adolescents"

"Depression levels are associated with lifetime use of a variety of substances in early adolescence and targeting this risk factor with preventive efforts may be useful in reducing risk. Negative urgency may be an important target for interventions aimed at alcohol and inhalant use."

3:
So what about income versus depression:
"Depression and socio-economic risk factors: 7-year longitudinal population study"

"Conclusions The study showed a clear relationship between worsening socio-economic circumstances and depression."

"All coefficients are bivariate and controlled only for the inverse Mill’s ratio. An increase of subjective financial strain (e.g. from ‘with difficulty’ to ‘with great difficulty’) or in deprivation was associated with statistically significant changes in both depression score and the likelihood of being a case of major depression. Becoming poor resulted in a statistically significant increase in depression score (but not in cases of major depression). Increase in income or becoming unemployed were associated neither with a change in depression score nor with a change in cases of major depression. Changing civic participation was associated with lower depression score only, to a statistically significant degree. Change in living arrangements was associated with change in both depression score and change in cases of major depression."

Which to the point - bad things happen to people 'with money' to.
How much is 'with money' to you?
Sometimes people hear that people like doctors make $250k and think wow - I'd never have a worry.
Take a look at their student loan payments each month and you can see where it can go.

Let's add this cause I turned it up on Google out of curiosity:

4:
Towards the point I made above. Remember that doctors don't start out making $250k.
They make very little during residency and still have access to the pharmacy:
"The Secret World of Drug-Addict Doctors"

5:
Mentions income versus overdoses in a graph for Washington State:
"Drug Abuse and Overdose"

6:
Reinforcing the reason that long term drug use as mentioned in the previous links, in particular with relation to heroine, has cumulative negative impacts on health.
"How heroin kills you"

7:
Cumulative health impacts can feed back into depression (or vice versa) (see #2, 3 and 6 for the reason this is here):
"The Relationship Between Mental and Physical Health"

All rights, trademarks and ownership of the linked documents are acknowledged by this post.

[pmangels17]

Regardless of when in the year drug/alcohol abuse occur, the user's socioeconomic status, the type of school, or their membership on the team and our roles alongside them (students, mentors, teachers, etc), and frankly regardless of what the law is or should be, we as teammates need to ensure that fellow members of our team are acting responsibly and taking care of themselves, driven not by an obligation or legal requirement, but out of the compassion we all share for each other.

While many people subscribe to the idea that whatever people do on their own time is their own business, I cannot support that sentiment. Recently, I endured a great personal loss at the hands of substance abuse, and anybody else who has had a similar experience realizes that the ramifications of one's actions inevitably affect more than the individual. No matter who the person is on our team, whether it be a mentor or student, We as team members have a responsibility to ensure the safety of every member of our team. Sometimes this may be difficult, and I know that this is a bit of a derailment from the question of "What do I do?" to "Should I do something?" but the answer to the latter is yes, you should do something.

Figuring what to do is a bit trickier, as team dynamics vary and depend on who is addressing whom, but regardless, there are some key points that should always be included. The first is to approach the individual openly, and make it clear that you are addressing them because you are concerned for them, not because you are concerned that they are breaking a rule or law. Second, be compassionate and willing to listen, always trying to further your understanding of the situation. Finally, you are not alone. The individual undoubtedly has other friends or family, as do you, who likely share your concern. Talking together about the issue and deciding as a group how to approach a very subjective problem is always a good course of action. Most importantly, you have to do something, because if you don't, the consequences can be among the most horrible that there are.

Disclaimer: I have not had any sort of experience like this on my team. I speak from other areas of my life separate from robotics on this topic. I neither condone nor partake in the consumption of illegal drugs.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by pmangels17

We as team members have a responsibility to ensure the safety of every member of our team.

This is the key to me. As a student and as a mentor, I care about all the members of my team. I want them to lead long and successful lives, by whatever standards are important to them.

As a student, I was well aware that there were students that had a relatively large pot habit on my team. I'm also pretty sure some of the mentors at least were aware of this-- but these students were also nearly straight A students, contributed in all sorts of ways to the team, and have gone on to have successful college and professional careers. It's quite clear that their recreational drug use wasn't negatively affecting them (or the team, or those around them), and I personally don't see any issue letting that pass.

That being said, I also went to a different high school my junior and senior years that had all sorts of issues with recreational drug use, and I have a side of my family with a history of substance abuse and depression, which has lead to all sorts of personal, professional, and legal issues. Were someone in a similar situation that I was aware of on my team, I'd definitely be talking to them and trying to get them help.

I'm definitely not saying that students all partake in responsible ways, but I tend to play it very, very cautiously when approaching sensitive situations without having had personal conversations with those involved, and this issue certainly counts as sensitive. Unless there is a clear and present danger (either legal or medical) to the team member or members involved, I'd avoid going to school or legal authorities.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

Unless there is a clear and present danger (either legal or medical) to the team member or members involved, I'd avoid going to school or legal authorities.

Question: Asimov's Zeroth Law.

What I'm getting at is the following scenario, which may present a clear and present danger to the team.

Team member admits to team mentor that team member uses "controlled substances" recreationally. Appropriate governing law/policy (of any governing jurisdiction, including school) states that if said mentor knows and does not report, they are in big trouble (if caught later).

The big problem there, as a mentor, would be this: Reporting saves mentor's employment, involvement with team, possibly even the team--but betrays a trust. Failing to report preserves the trust... but at the risk of severely damaging the team, if not destroying it.


To be honest, this isn't an easy question. I speak from painful experience--let's just let it go at that.


Also, to be honest, if I was in that position, I would probably encourage the student to talk to someone who I'd be obliged to report it to--many times, facing the consequences is better than avoiding them, and in this case could save a life. (And, I'd also be looking for places that can provide help.)

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by EricH

Also, to be honest, if I was in that position, I would probably encourage the student to talk to someone who I'd be obliged to report it to--many times, facing the consequences is better than avoiding them, and in this case could save a life. (And, I'd also be looking for places that can provide help.)

And this was pretty much the way this was handled on my old team. The discipline policy was that behavior against the team's code of conduct (which was a contract signed by the team member and their parent) should be told to our faculty advisor, who would handle any appropriate discipline. This was a pretty good system for the team, considering that our faculty advisor was almost universally trusted and admired by the students and mentors of the team. I'm sure there are many issues that I was not aware of that went by him, and I know that he helped numerous students who were suffering from depression or anxiety while on the team.

I'm personally very concerned for my current team, which serves low income students and doesn't have a very good connection to our school. I have very little legal knowledge, but I'm pretty sure the arrangement on 2220 was relatively safe legally for the team (given that our mentor was enforcing school policy), while my current team really has no good/safe way of handling a problematic situation like this.

Thank you to this thread for helping me realize that the mentors on my team need to have a discussion about handling these situations.

[GeeTwo]

I am confident that a few of our student team members have used alcohol and/or illicit drugs. The practical line is that we expect the team members (mentors included) to show up ready to compete - which means clear-headed and at least decently rested (though that slips a bit in February!). We have sent kids home from build sessions because "you need sleep more than the team needs you like this". By requiring this, I believe that we have inspired a number of students to change their drug habits. Some have cut out (or at least down on) illicit drugs. At least one began taking his prescribed meds more reguarly. I understand that another got his doctor to change his meds to something that suppresses the symptoms of his medical issue without also suppressing his intellect.

Our of our usually unstated goals is to inspire clean living. In some cases we even place this above inspiring science and technology. Transforming the culture for the better is the real bottom line.

Individuals with the fortitude to change bad habits are inspirational. They often prove to be good leaders.