Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Legal drinking age being 18 in Qc, Canada, kids on their senior year are old enough. I guess it's a matter of perspective

It's not a shame to admit that I had a beer with some mentors and other seniors while working on the robot! (not working with dangerous tools, duh )

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Monochron

We got to the restaurant, ordered our wings and food, and the two mentors got some beers. This didn't strike me as odd at all, every single time I had gone to a restaurant with my parents or parents' friends they had gotten alcohol. Alcohol, at this point in my life, was a means to get tipsy and have a good time. Having some beers was always followed by some light stumbling, overloud talking, and occasional swervy driving. Drinking beer and getting drunk sounded like a very exciting adult activity and it was very not cool that the law told me I couldn't do it.

Are you admitting that you drove drunk during high school and are brushing it off as something lighthearted?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by MaGiC_PiKaChU

It's not a shame to admit that I had a beer with some mentors and other seniors while working on the robot! (not working with dangerous tools, duh )

To be frank, I don't really think this is something to be proud of. I'm struggling to think of work that you could do on / with the robot that isn't potentially more dangerous with altered judgement and reaction time.

---

To respond to the thread in general: I don't really think it's appropriate for mentors to be bringing up the subject at robotics at all. There's no real value to be gained from telling drinking stories, talking about personal alcohol use, discussing the pros/cons of legalization politics, etc. at robotics. It's not the time or the place for such discussions. It's too easy to forget the strong influence some mentors can have on some students; all of our actions and stories may inform a student's future decisions. We've got more important things to be doing with our time. Of course, there may be situations where students see you as a trusted adult and ask questions out of curiosity. I'm not saying you need to lie to your students and say you've never had a sip of beer in your life, but it seems most appropriate to keep conversations on the subject brief and professional.

I don't have much to add on the subjects of drug use on the team or addiction, other than to reiterate what has already been said: Compassion, empathy, and understanding are absolutely vital to helping individuals struggling with addiction. While professional help should be sought as these issues are well above our pay grades, it's important that you don't abandon people when they may need you the most. Try to minimize harm, to themselves and others.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Are you admitting that you drove drunk during high school and are brushing it off as something lighthearted?

I believe he is referring to observations he made of others on the subject.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Are you admitting that you drove drunk during high school and are brushing it off as something lighthearted?

Robochair had it. I had been driven by adults who had been drinking far too much to be driving. I spent a lot of my teenage and earlier years seeing the negative affects of alcohol. That is something that I would never make light of.

I did use the term "swervy driving" a bit flippantly though. Sometimes it is easier to make light of your crappy memories than it is to go into detail about them :/

Edit:
The "having some beers" sentence in my post was NOT referring to myself drinking. It was referring to how I had seen adults interacting with alcohol only. Thanks for saying something, I edited my post to better reflect that.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by wireties

Wow - for us such behavior gets the student a suspension and the mentors banned. We would have no choice in the matter.

And as a parent I think this is disrespectful. If I want my son to go to Hooters, I'll take him (and suffer the divorce later).

Yeah, after that dinner locations had to be explicitly approved on the team. However, if I had been suspended and my mentors banned after having one of my first transformative experiences concerning my view of drinking, I would have felt very let down by my school.

[M3NT0R]

Originally Posted by wireties

I commend you for your involvement and concern for the students.

I appreciate it, but to be frank it's a personal re-definition of my role that I've grown into and did not start with.

But with respect we are technical and team mentors.....

I think that's selling us short (not taking offense, just saying) because...

....someone who can make a difference must be told.

This could be us.

We should abide by the rules of the schools involved, FIRST YPP and expectations of parents.

Absolutely!


Perhaps it's my naivety, not having kids of my own, but I think it is possible to make a difference and respect parents/community. It just takes more effort but I think it's worth it...well we'll see in sometime.

[M3NT0R]

Originally Posted by Monochron

....I would have felt very let down by my school.

You and I are pretty close on this issue I think, but if this behavior was allowed or at least not disciplined it could be norm or worse get extremely out of hand.

This is very very fine line crossing the mentor/teammate boundary.

I think you could have learned the same thing through a conversation, and if you looked up to this mentor as a role model, perhaps you would have understood.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Yeah, after that dinner locations had to be explicitly approved on the team. However, if I had been suspended and my mentors banned after having one of my first transformative experiences concerning my view of drinking, I would have felt very let down by my school.

The school's first mission is to keep students safe, how they 'feel' can be addressed after safety.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by wireties

The school's first mission is to keep students safe, how they 'feel' can be addressed after safety.

Are you saying that I was in danger at Hooters?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Are you saying that I was in danger at Hooters?

Let me slightly rephrase the original statement by asking a counter-question.

Would the school think you were safe or in danger at Hooters? (For this, whether you actually were in danger is totally irrelevant. Also, I'm deliberately avoiding the question of just what might be the cause of the danger--it just matters that the school might consider you to be in danger from something--anything.)


To rephrase the original statement, the school's first mission is to keep kids safe as the school sees safe. (Whether that should be their first mission is a matter for debate in another thread.) This is because the school's zeroth mission is to make sure the school stays open with the current staff as much as possible. (First job of any bureaucracy and all that.) And, should a kid get hurt, the school could potentially be liable--last thing the school wants is for a lawyer to show up with a lawsuit in hand.

Thus, schools have all sorts of policies to protect both kids and their own interests. Whether the policies actually are in the kids' best interests is certainly a debatable item, but this thread isn't the place to discuss that. (Matter of fact, I bet you could find some past discussion here on CD on some policies that--from one point of view--were most definitely NOT in the best interests of the kids' education.) Violation of said policies is generally considered to be a very bad thing by the various school entities involved, and subject to various penalties spelled out by the various policies.



For the students reading this thread: If a mentor has to follow organization policies when or if you say something to them, there is something that you should probably know. As much as it might hurt you to not be able to trust them, I am sure that it probably hurts them at least as much to lose that trust. You'll have to trust me: I've been there, in the "enforcement" side, and it is not a time I like to remember.

[rlowe61]

After reading through this thread, as someone who works for Law Enforcement, I have a couple cents to throw in. The Laws of each state are very similar in the fact that drugs/alchohol on school property (including parking lots) is normally a felony and also can carry child endangerment charges. So if you have hearsay of activities, you might want to remind these young talented minds that the easiest way to ruin a great career is with a felony charge. Also most states will charge that 17 yo as an adult in these cases.
There were a few stories that had a tragic or near tragic end, those are reminders it doesn't take much to ruin a life.
Yes the post about what teachers are mandated to report doesn't include possible drug/alchohol abuse unless it endangers someone, well someone using and driving endangers a lot of people.
Talk to your students about the dangers, not only to themselves, but to others.
Thanks for your time.

[kristinweiss]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

That said, I don't really think it's in the job description of a mentor to attempt to educate students on anything other that what we're there for - inspiration and recognition of science and technology. It's not my job at meetings to lecture kids about alcohol use, or talk about politics, or or anything else that may be controversial. It's to show them that engineering is fun, and that it exists largely outside of all those other concerns. Focus on what we're there for, and when necessary refer the students to the appropriate individuals employed by the school.

As a recent alumni turned mentor, I have found on multiple occasions that discussing topics outside of "inspiration and recognition of science and technology" can be very beneficial to students on the team. I go to a very well known and respected engineering school that most of the students on my team hope to attend. I encourage them to come talk to me about their life outside of robotics and often share with them what I did in high school in order to get into the college I am at. One of the biggest things that I try to instill in them is that in order to get into a good school, they are better off working hard, discovering their passion, and making connections than they are sneaking out to go to parties or getting involved with drugs or alcohol. Once they turn 21 they can experiment all they want with alcohol, but in the mean time I try to keep them focuses on what will help them best advance to the next stage in their life. I always to try talk to them about their interests outside of robotics, because I believe that it is very important to be well rounded and have multiple interests rather than live robotics 24/7. I have been a mentor on my team for less than a year, but I can definitely see the kids positively responding to our conversations, and I think the fact that I am so close to them in age and am where they want to be a few years down the road significantly helps.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by EricH

Violation of said policies is generally considered to be a very bad thing by the various school entities involved, and subject to various penalties spelled out by the various policies.

Yeah, we are in complete agreement. What we did was clearly against the rules as we found out when we received a lecture from the head mentor. But like I said in the story, that wasn't really the main point I was making.

Avoiding situations that break the rules is generally a good idea

[FrankJ]

With hopefully not taking The Hooters thing too far.

Hooters is more of a bar with food rather than a restaurant with a bar. Unless I was completely sure the parents are Ok with that, I wouldn't take students there. If some one complained to the school it would put the school in an embarrassing situation.

While I don't completely agree with this viewpoint, many see the Hooters as exploitative of women. Once again you might have students uncomfortable with that, but feel pressure to go along. Or you might find their parents (or other memtors) have strong opinions on this.

My team's school has 24/7 rules for the students which includes not drinking or drugs. It also has exceptions of adult that are involved with school activities which include no drugs or alcohol when youth are present. We make these policies clear on an ongoing basis. Since the school doesn't pay me, I would base reporting violations (outside of team activities) on what I though best for the student.