Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by mman1506

In 2014 with our inbounding robot we were pretty much destined to loose if we were anything but 2nd/3rd pick. If the competition was so uncompetitive that we made it to the 4 alliance captain in 2014 it would nullify any personal achievement gained from reaching that position. Last pick all the way!

Our 2014 robot didn't even have an intake and we were an alliance captain that nearly won an event. To that point team 900 won the North Carolina Regional without an intake as the inbounder. Depending on how it was done, the inbounder could be a successful captain *cough secret sauce cough*. Also any time you can attain captain status you've done well regardless of the competiton. I'd argue there isn't an FRC event out there where being a captain is no big deal to the average team.

[GeeTwo]

This one is too hypothetical to vote. Coming at it realistically along the arrow of time, I'd rather we rank 4th and be eliminated; I wouldn't know that that alternative time line existed. On the other hand, if I had a "one wish Genie" who offered me the choice to make one or the other happen, and I had trust in his/her ability to deliver: I'd go for the win at regional where the team would get the further inspiration of going to championships, and experience a great boost in marketability with sponsors. At CMP I'd probably stick with #4.

We were essentially in the 1B position this year; we were the second pick of the #2 alliance at Bayou and our alliance was victorious. The even better news was that we were picked by Breakaway and Wildcat for an unusual capability that we intentionally set out to develop; we decided that we'd rather be a good landfill robot that could get game pieces off the step and flip totes than a relatively poor HP station 'bot. We had only four seniors this year. Half of the team members (and nearly all of mechanical) were rookies, so we knew we had to keep it super simple, and play to ally with, not compete against, the top tier teams at Bayou. During eliminations, we tunneled to the step and delivered our alliance's #4 RC from the step to the vicinity of the landmark (has anyone used this term on CD?), scored totes, and brought in a pretty good HP noodle thrower to boot*. Had it been match play, we would have won most if not all of our matches by fewer points than our team scored; this does not count the 20-30 points our fourth RC enabled our alliance partner to score. If the trip to CMP had meant that we only provided a plate for our alliance partners' cheesecake, especially if our contribution didn't seem to make a real difference, I would probably have picked ranking #4 and being eliminated in quarters.

* Between 3937's HP and ours, we elicited the only "noodle net" that I've heard was deployed. Each of them put at least one noodle over.

[Ari423]

<long story> So this year at Midknight Mayhem we surprised ourselves and ended in 7th seed, which meant we would be an alliance captain. This was my first competition experience as team captain, and our team's first time being an alliance captain at any competition in many years. I realized while I was standing waiting for my turn to make our first pick that it is possible for us to be picked by a higher seed alliance, and I would have to choose whether or not to accept. We are a small program, so I wasn't in contact with any kind of scouting group in the stands to make decisions for me. And any team there who did scouting or knew us from the regular season knew that we could really help an alliance if and only if we had strong alliance partners, so getting picked by those strong possible alliance partners wasn't out of the question. What I decided in the moment while I was standing there was that I would accept if we were picked by another alliance captain. Sure being an alliance captain would be cool, but winning the event would be even cooler, so we should do whatever it takes to try to win the event, even if it means not being an alliance captain. We worked under/with some great teams this year and contributed to every alliance we were in, even as a 2nd pick, let alone a 1st pick. In the end we didn't get picked, and we got out in quarter finals as 5th alliance captains. It was still a great experience, but I think I would have been happier if we would have been picked by a top alliance captain and won the event. Blue banners aren't everything, but they definitely help a small team that is struggling with sponsorship, membership, and recognition. Now this is different than either scenario presented in the OP because it was an off-season event, but the principles still stand (it's probably closer to CMP than a regional because winning doesn't qualify you for anything else). </long story>

That was my experience with this decision. I hope to be lucky enough to have to make it again in a regular season competition.

[asid61]

If you win a regional, you get to experience championships. That's worth more to me than being an alliance captain.
If you win champsionships, it's a massive plus for team morale, even if you weren't the first pick. Plus, in 10 years, nobody really remembers how you won (except mentors); they just see the banner.

[BJT]

We are most of the time a top 8 robot in the regionals we attend, but rarely are we in the top 1 or 2. After a while, losing in the quarters or semis as the #4 captain starts to get old. We know that we had a good year, but it sure would be nice to win once in a while, no matter how it happens

[Max Boord]

Originally Posted by Karthik

You're competing at a 30 team regional, your last event of the season, and your team is not qualified to attend the Championship.

After making regional eliminations 11 times in a row (almost always as an alliance captain or 1st pick) but not ever having won one, I would much rather win a regional than be an alliance captain even if the only way my team would be picked 24th was due to controversial circumstances (sandbagging, cheesecake, etc.).

Originally Posted by Karthik

2. You're competing in a division at Championship. Would you rather be:
A) The number 4 Alliance Captain and lose in the division quarterfinals OR
B) The last pick of Alliance Selection of the #1 alliance (A.K.A. The 24th pick) and win Championship

Here is where the exact circumstances changed my selection. If I knew that the #1 alliance was almost guaranteed to win there division (something like the 254,111,973 alliance in 2011) then I would much rather be their 4th alliance member than go against them in the quarter finals even if it means my team will not likely play on the field. However if the #1 seeded team is weaker, I would be more inclined to risk forming my own alliance, even if my team would only captain alliance #4 or lower.

In a less hypothetical situation, If I had to make 1114s championship decision in 2011 I would have declined 1771 knowing with good scouting data I may be able to beat them with an alliance constructed from the #8 position despite the risk of missing elims if 1771 decided to scorch earth or all alliance captains avoid inter picking to keep out 1114 and knowing my chances of winning the world championship where nearly 0 if I chose to form an alliance with 1771.

[EricLeifermann]

At the end of the day it's alot easier to go to sponsors and ask for things when you have hardware to show.

Also while winning isn't everything ask those teams who rarely if ever win what winning does for their team the next year. Sometimes being that team who might just be along for the ride can do more than being that middle 1st round pick.

Generally I'd take qualifying for champs and then alliance captain at champs but I took it from the perspective I mentioned above and voted for both option B.

Ask 5012 if they'd give up their banner and trophy to be the #4 alliance captain on Newton this year...

[Chris is me]

Winning in both instances. Why? Winning Champs is obvious; the third robot still has to be pretty good, you get to win the World Championship, you get to go next year, etc. etc. So I'm going to discuss why I'd rather win a regional as a last pick than go out in the quarters

Firstly for personal reasons; I haven't been on a team the year they've won a regional since 2009. Kinda tired of playing "1,000 Ways To Lose A Regional".

More important than that, winning is inspiring. Not so much the act of getting a trophy but the act of playing with the best teams at the event, getting a taste of high level play, and learning unique ways for your robot to contribute. A bid to Championships can give a team the second wind they need in order to pursue a major rebuild to become more competitive - it's motivating. Playing with the best teams gives students hands-on access to the drive teams, strategy, pit crews, and design details of the best teams at their event.

One of the biggest turning points for my former team (2791) was when we had the good fortune to be selected by 2168 and 118 at the CT Regional in 2012. While we didn't win the event (see: Einstein that year for more information), we got to play with one of the best teams on the east coast and one of the best teams in the entire world. We got to see how the best teams operated. We had a shining example of a stunningly simple but effective robot in 2168, as well as a beautifully engineered masterpiece in 118. Two amazing drive teams that played well under pressure served as role models for future student drivers on the team. The pit crews of both teams worked hard not only to upgrade their own robots, but also ours, leaving improvements that stuck for the rest of the season. We wouldn't trade that experience for anything.

It's very possible that coming close to winning, but not quite reaching that point is more inspiring in the long run - 2791 is currently a team that is packed full of students and mentors whom are hungry for a regional win and willing to work hard for long hours to get there. Perhaps if a win was as "easy" as being the last pick that wouldn't happen. I guess I can't say for sure.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Joe G.

I wouldn't remotely consider it simple either, and yet I'm constantly hearing it described as such, and lumped in with some of the more classical examples.

(I could write a whole white-paper on gross misuse of the word "simplicity," often retroactively, within the FIRST community).

I think people generally use "simple" when they really mean "elegant". But that's not on subject right now.

I would much prefer the banner in both scenarios.

20 had the honor of being the Carson Championship alliance's second pick and only played in one eliminations match. Our team knew (and advised our alliance) that we'd be better off with 1711 on the field and their wicked fast canburglars than with us on the field. We consciously made the choice to go for the banner rather than lose in divisional eliminations. And we acheived our season goal of making it to Einstein.

Now given the option before alliance selections whether I'd prefer to the the #4 Captain or the #24 pick, I'd pick the #4 captain every time. However regardless of how my team got picked, by whom, or for what reason- the competitive goal is to win the blue banner. Any method to do so without compromising my team's integrity is a method I support.

This goes even more so for 5254, because they get to attend the championship if they win a banner.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Ask 5012 if they'd give up their banner and trophy to be the #4 alliance captain on Newton this year...

For sure, I'm certain that most World Champs wouldn't trade their banner in this situation. However, one of the reasons I posted this is that I had a discussion with a member of a past World Champion who said they felt their Championship "didn't count" because they weren't the Alliance Captain or first pick. It was a perspective I didn't expect to hear from someone who had a gold medal to show from the situation.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Karthik

For sure, I'm certain that most World Champs wouldn't trade their banner in this situation. However, one of the reasons I posted this is that I had a discussion with a member of a past World Champion who said they felt their Championship "didn't count" because they weren't the Alliance Captain or first pick. It was a perspective I didn't expect to hear from someone who had a gold medal to show from the situation.

Given I don't know which team you are talking about, I can see this person's opinion making sense if they didn't play a huge role in the alliances success. Some late picks are very valuable and shouldn't feel this way (16 in 2012 and 610 in 2013 come to mind), but some late picks don't really do much and I can understand it not feeling like they deserve the win. Getting carried through eliminations isn't the greatest feeling in the world. In the end it comes down to the team's goals.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by Karthik

For sure, I'm certain that most World Champs wouldn't trade their banner in this situation. However, one of the reasons I posted this is that I had a discussion with a member of a past World Champion who said they felt their Championship "didn't count" because they weren't the Alliance Captain or first pick. It was a perspective I didn't expect to hear from someone who had a gold medal to show from the situation.

I can understand this, and I've heard it from some very prominent teams even when it comes to just winning a regional.

I don't know if it is still like this but FTC used to only move the alliance captain on to the next level of competition so being a pick didn't garner you anything but a potential event win...

I liked the rule back in the day that said you had to play all members of an alliance in each round of elims(granted the games were 2v2 with 3 member alliances). I think that they should bring it back(at least at champs where its the only place of 4 team alliances) as it would add another level to scouting. Though if they move to 4 v 4 like I've heard rumblings the last couple of years they might get rid of the back up robot all together at champs...

[thatprogrammer]

This is a difficult question. I'd enjoy going to worlds, and the inspiration my team could get by going would definitely make me agree to just being a pick and winning. Not sure about the question for world's yet though, I never have gone there!

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

Given I don't know which team you are talking about, I can see this person's opinion making sense if they didn't play a huge role in the alliances success. Some late picks are very valuable and shouldn't feel this way (16 in 2012 and 610 in 2013 come to mind), but some late picks don't really do much and I can understand it not feeling like they deserve the win. Getting carried through eliminations isn't the greatest feeling in the world. In the end it comes down to the team's goals.

The reaction of peers/the community also plays an important role in how a team feels about being the third or fourth robots on a winning alliance. In many discussions over the years I've heard things like, "Well it doesn't really count" or "You have X banners but you really only earned Y". While publicly we acknowledge and congratulate the winning alliances of regionals, off the record the conversations look more like the above examples. I will admit I've had similar conversations over the years and I'm sure many other FIRSTers have as well at some point in their time with FRC.

[Jared Russell]

Winning feels good and can often bootstrap future success, so in both cases I'd personally choose "winning".

But from the outside looking in, if you were to ask me which is a "more impressive" accomplishment, I'd probably go with the #4 seed in both cases. I have seen many #1 seeded alliances where the last robot makes significant contributions; I have seen relatively few #1 seeded alliances where the last robot would not have been replaceable without a loss in effectiveness by one or more of the other 21 robots that had picked or been picked before it.

For this reason, I am a BIG fan of a district points system. Winning the tournament as a third robot is worth something, sure...but consistently seeding high is worth just as much or more. If a #4 seed was worth more qualifying points than a last pick blue banner, then I would change my answer to the original question (at the Regional/District level).