Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection

[JamesTerm]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

I'd argue there isn't an FRC event out there where being a captain is no big deal to the average team.

Forgive me... I want to translate this double negative...

I'd argue that at every FRC event, being a captain is always big deal to the average team.

I think I got that logic right... if not let me know.


I don't disagree with you


But I gotta ask... why is it such a big deal? I don't get it. Is it bragging rights? Is it the hunger for power? Why is being in control such a big deal? doesn't anyone out there feel that a leadership role can be more of a facilitator role where more emphasis is ensuring that everyone has a say and then it really becomes a team effort? Anyone believe the teaching that a good follower has the ability to become a great leader?

I just don't understand... I personally feel we don't have to prove anything to anyone (especially once we overcome our own insecurities)... we just achieve excellence and people will see it... that to me is more attractive than someone who brags with blue banners. But what do I know? I guess some people need bling bling to impress others... all I care about is what is on the inside... the actual substance that makes us tick... oh well... it's all good, we are all different... makes the world more interesting.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JamesTerm

Forgive me... I want to translate this double negative...

I'd argue that at every FRC event, being a captain is always big deal to the average team.

I think I got that logic right... if not let me know.


I don't disagree with you


But I gotta ask... why is it such a big deal? I don't get it. Is it bragging rights? Is it the hunger for power? Why is being in control such a big deal?

It's that you're in a more exclusive club.

8/40 vs 24/40 is kind of a big deal, even bigger at bigger events (or at smaller events--if everybody plays in the elims, then the folks who determine who plays whom are kind of a big deal, no?).


It's also--to some extent--building a better robot. For teams that don't make eliminations routinely, being an AC is a HUGE highlight. Particularly if they are usually being picked rather than picking. It's validation of their hard work--possibly over the last X years.

For a powerhouse team, sure, AC isn't that big a deal necessarily (NOT being an AC would be a bit disappointing)--but, remember, a powerhouse tends to be in the picking position.


Just to look at a couple of scenarios:
Powerhouses are used to being ACs or (early) 1st-round picks. While being picked up in the 2nd round can be disappointing, winning sure looks good. But it's really nice to control your own destiny to a point.

An average team is used to being late 1st-round or 2nd round, maybe backup--if they aren't packing up after selections. (Depends on event size--out here, your average team is likely thinking about packing up by QFs. In districts or smaller regionals, not so much, as they're likely in the 2nd round or before.)

And then there's the outliers on the other side. You pick 'em, it makes their year that they're even playing on Saturday, because they're used to packing up right after their last match of quals. If they're an AC, somebody hand them a picklist, they'll probably need it. OTOH, maybe they're just starting their rise...

[Rman1923]

So if I were in a regional system, anything, absolutely anything to go to champs. And once at champs, totally would also go for the win. The reasons are different though.
I want to always qualify for champs to meet other teams, check out the robots I've been drooling over since reveal day, and enjoy the atmosphere. Honestly, the only competitions I care about getting first place at are regional and DCMP levels. Those are the ones that qualify you for champs. Like this season, North Brunswick (Week 6) felt like an off-season for me cause we qualified at TVR through EI.
At champs however, the reason I want to win is for sponsors. If you do well at champs, you can outreach to your community, to schools, and to sponsors so much easier. (It's cooler to say that your robot was third in the world than to say we were the 4th best robot on one of the eight divisions at robotics world championships and we made it to X in that division). On the three years I've been on this team, I don't think we've had a busier summer. With this kind of experience, you can turn even a 3rd pick team (which, btw, is still nothing to scuff at) into an Champs Alliance Captain (given you've got great mentors and students).

TL;DR: 1B&2B all the way except if you're at a District event, then 1A&2B. Reason for 2B: Sponsor Support in the future/ better outreach

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by JamesTerm

But I gotta ask... why is it such a big deal? I don't get it. Is it bragging rights? Is it the hunger for power? Why is being in control such a big deal? doesn't anyone out there feel that a leadership role can be more of a facilitator role where more emphasis is ensuring that everyone has a say and then it really becomes a team effort? Anyone believe the teaching that a good follower has the ability to become a great leader?

As a scouting lead/ guy in alliance selection for the past two years, I never got to be the captain (my co-lead did once in the same time period). We were ranked a couple of times when I was out there, but we were always picked. To me, it's a big deal on 2 fronts. first of all, it's assurance. you know when you'll get picked, and there's no "well what if the 3rd captain picks me when I've already set everything up with the 4th alliance?" Twice at DCMP I've stood there (and I'm sure teammates have sat there) with my heart sinking, realizing that despite our merits, we won't get picked- this is the main reason I find it important. The other reason is completely personal- the PNW AV crew does highlight reels that usually include the top 8 team's representatives at some point, and I wanted to be in one

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by JamesTerm

Forgive me... I want to translate this double negative...

I'd argue that at every FRC event, being a captain is always big deal to the average team.

I think I got that logic right... if not let me know.


I don't disagree with you


But I gotta ask... why is it such a big deal? I don't get it. Is it bragging rights? Is it the hunger for power? Why is being in control such a big deal? doesn't anyone out there feel that a leadership role can be more of a facilitator role where more emphasis is ensuring that everyone has a say and then it really becomes a team effort? Anyone believe the teaching that a good follower has the ability to become a great leader?

I just don't understand... I personally feel we don't have to prove anything to anyone (especially once we overcome our own insecurities)... we just achieve excellence and people will see it... that to me is more attractive than someone who brags with blue banners. But what do I know? I guess some people need bling bling to impress others... all I care about is what is on the inside... the actual substance that makes us tick... oh well... it's all good, we are all different... makes the world more interesting.

Sorry... I can't not include a double negative in my posts My favorite part about being an alliance captain as opposed to being picked (other than the assurance of playing in the playoffs) is determining the strategy for the alliance. When you fill the role of the third robot, you're generally assigned a simple task and told not to screw it up. As the alliance captain you really get to utilize all of your preparation (scouting, plays, strategies, etc.) to its fullest potential.

[Pault]

Originally Posted by JamesTerm

Forgive me... I want to translate this double negative...

I'd argue that at every FRC event, being a captain is always big deal to the average team.

I think I got that logic right... if not let me know.


I don't disagree with you


But I gotta ask... why is it such a big deal? I don't get it. Is it bragging rights? Is it the hunger for power? Why is being in control such a big deal? doesn't anyone out there feel that a leadership role can be more of a facilitator role where more emphasis is ensuring that everyone has a say and then it really becomes a team effort? Anyone believe the teaching that a good follower has the ability to become a great leader?

I just don't understand... I personally feel we don't have to prove anything to anyone (especially once we overcome our own insecurities)... we just achieve excellence and people will see it... that to me is more attractive than someone who brags with blue banners. But what do I know? I guess some people need bling bling to impress others... all I care about is what is on the inside... the actual substance that makes us tick... oh well... it's all good, we are all different... makes the world more interesting.

Its just being competitive. Being an alliance captain is simply an accomplishment for the average team. It is a much more concrete goal than "build a good robot." I don't think wanting to be an alliance captain always is about getting other people to recognize how good your robot is, but instead just confirmation to yourself that you actually did accomplish something.

[LeelandS]

Seems I'm in the minority with a 1A + 2A pick. Interesting to note, were I to pose this question to my own team, I doubt many of them would pick the same as I. I think they would choose a combinations of 1A + 2B or 1B +2B.

Personally, I've never put as much stock in winning as the people around me. I grew up on a team that had some really good years and some really bad years. I am currently on a team that historically has had some really bad years, and lately has had some pretty okay years. I've come to appreciate simply having a robot to work with. For me, it's not about winning. It's about being competitive, and being the best I can be (which extends to my goals for my team).

Winning is secondary. I want to have the robot that every wants to see; be the team that everyone talks about. That is what I consider inspiring. Sure, winning is great and is a memorable experience in and of itself. But leaving an impression and being preserved in people's memories is a much bigger prize to me. To be the third pick on an alliance and fall into obscurity for me would be a shame. To captain an alliance will always be a greater honor to me than winning a regional.

[dodar]

Honestly, I believe this question tells us more of the standards of each persons region than of that one person or team. Not trying to belittle any specific regional/district event, but some may see being the 3rd robot on a #1 alliance at certain regionals/districts as still being extremely good and some may see it as riding coattails; the same would go with being the #4 Captain.

[JamesTerm]

Ok I get what y'all are saying... so let's put it to the test... let's say you are 4th seed and... 1 and 2 became an alliance now 3 picks you... how big of a deal is it to be an alliance captain now? Would you accept or decline? If the answer is depends.. on what... if you accept and win... would the win feel like a victory... same questions can apply for both regional and champs.

[Brian Maher]

Let's look at the district points (using the 2015 system for qualification points) for two teams at an event of 35 teams, a typical size for a district event:

Team A: Ranked #4, captain of the fourth alliance, quarterfinalist:

Qualification points: 19
Selection points: 13
Playoff points: 0
Total: 32

Team B: Ranked #24, second pick of the first alliance, wins event:

Qualification points: 10
Selection points: 1
Playoff points: 30
Total: 41

The District Points system dictates that Team B deserves more points than Team A. The 9 point disparity may not seem like a ton, but the point threshold to qualify for CMP from MAR (for example) was 104. There are three teams in MAR that could have qualified for CMP if they had just nine more points.
I found it interesting that if that #4 alliance makes it to semifinals, Team A would have 42 points compared to Team B's 41 points. This creates a much smaller gap and tips it in favor of Team A.

[Anthony Galea]

From my teams' perspective, I can only answer question one from experience. For our first two years as a team, we were not picked in alliance selection. However, in 2012, we were picked twice, and the second time was situation 1B without the Champs qualification because it was a district. It was a great experience for our team, and has probably been the second-greatest source of inspiration (the first being going to Champs, even on a wait list spot) our team has gotten (and one of the most fun). Since then (including offseason events) we have made the elimination rounds at 8/12 events, and been an alliance captain twice (2014 MIBED and 2014 KK). The winning of the events' inspiration definitely contributed to that. At Kettering Kickoff, we were the fourth alliance captain with a first round exit. Although we felt accomplished to get that far as alliance captains, it wasn't nearly as inspiring and fun as being on a winning alliance. In a singular instance I'd take 1B any day, and to go further, I'd take 2B any day and be a world champion. It takes a lot of skill to be picked at Champs, no matter when you get picked, even as a backup bot.

Just my $0.02.

[Clem1640]

1B & 2B. Because winning is winning and while being alliance captain is a great experience (and knowing how to be a good alliance captain is a critical skill set), winning still trumps it.

[CJ_Elliott]

1B & 2B. Everyone puts a lot of work into their robot every year. Even if our robot isn't a super effective, top tier robot, I would much rather see our team do well and work effectively in our alliance than do better in quals and come out of it possibly not making quarterfinals.

[Nathan Streeter]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

In my experience there is nothing more inspiring for a group of students than winning a blue banner. Striving for excellence is a lot easier when you've had a taste of it. That being said, I wouldn't want to be the 24th pick and win if I had an awful robot and was told to sit in the corner, but if I was on a team and was picked 24th to play an important role, then I would embrace it. 1058s only regional win came when we were picked 23rd (last pick on 2 seed) but that win changed the culture of our team forever.

Just because you get picked last doesn't mean you can't be a good team.

Originally Posted by piersklein

This year my team was picked as a second pick both of our two district events. In the first one we were the last robot and picked up by the 1st seed and we won the event. Despite our 2014 season being successful, this one day of matches has been the most important one for me personally. Due entirely to team 1519's belief that we were worthwhile as partners, our scoring improved, our confidence improved, and I was able be mentored by a team that wins constantly. Soley for this reason, being picked last is completely worth it to me. Also due to this, our next event we improved greatly and in eliminations scored many of our alliance's points. However, we were knocked out in the quarterfinals due to a few mistakes.

It's cool to hear from two teams that 1519's picked late in the draft! I will say that both 1058 in 2010 and 4908 in 2015 played critical roles on our alliances... in both cases we felt like we were getting a total steal for that late in the draft at those events! I'm glad that the experiences were highlights/turning points for your teams!

1058 did anything but 'sit in the corner' at GSR in 2010... playing the all-important mid-field position moving balls from mid-field to the near zone fast enough to keep 1073 busy pushing them into goals. As I recall, 1058 was 'getting things working' throughout quals at GSR and didn't have much accuracy on the goal, but was very effective at possessing a ball and passing it on (which was all we needed!).

4908 may have physically 'sat in the corner' at UMD in 2015, but they added plenty of value, particularly for the 24th selection at a 27 team event!! They'd shown flashes in quals and had several key abilities... as long as they could get the first two totes out correctly, they were all set. I think you guys scored 2 4-stacks from the HP twice by the end of elims! Quite impressive for the 24th pick at their first event... particularly given that there were only 3 robots unpicked!

I can definitely relate to the group with positive experiences from the 'last pick' group... we were picked 23rd by 33 and 469 on Archimedes in 2013... we played a helpful role, but certainly weren't carrying our alliance. Regardless, that experience had an overwhelming impact on our team, providing us with our only CMP division win and Einstein appearance and showing us a lot about how teams compete at that level.

Conversely, we also learned a lot from flopping as the #8 captain at on Newton in 2006... selecting a successful alliance at CMP is anything but just picking your friends and implementing a similar strategy that won you a week 1 regional. Turns out both experiences can be great learning experiences... I'd say we definitely enjoyed and took more honor in the experience winning as the 'final' pick than flopping as the last captain though.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

The rookie team we picked in Montreal as a last robot (Ultime 5528) played a very important role; they got us the last can we needed to score enough points. Of course, they are not one of the best robots at the regional, but guess what? winning worlds doesn't mean either you're one of the 4 best bots worldwide. That's how FIRST works; it's about teamwork.
Winning that regional gave them a chance to experience worlds, and inspired them to win the FedEx challenge to win 15 000 dollars. They even participated in the Tesla High score along with us and Team Tators 2122.

They came to our team BBQ, and I had the chance to speak with them... They couldn't have dreamed of better. They are even more enthusiastic about next season, and that prize will surely help them do better.

TLR - Winning does matters for young teams