[FRC Blog] New Districts, Frank Answers Fridays, and More!

[marshall]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

I actually think you're going to see more and more of them. It brings the state in line with the progression of the other districts while allowing for easier growth in the future.

I would agree. Organizing a multi-state district requires a lot of communication and organization that doesn't exist at the moment.

I'm on the fence about districts right now. There are some downsides with teams having to raise additional funds to go play at district championships. There are upsides too, mind you.

For us, it's a right royal pain because we now will likely have to find hotels and accommodations for students at multiple events along with the district championship. We also have a lot more paperwork than the average team for transporting some of our students due to the nature of our host school (It's a boarding school).

I'm very much on the fence about this and I'm curious if these smaller district events are going to be as well organized as the more focused regionals were... particularly with the change in venue and the field equipment, AV setups, etc.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Monochron

I agree, they are growing every year. It seems like the strain on the given FIRST state organization would be reduced by partnering with a nearby state though. Right now a district NEEDS at minimum 3 events where the old regional model only needed one. Having at least two states involved would allow for those 3 events to be put on by the combined resources of those states rather than leaving one to do it themselves. Ideally you would have more than 3 events total, but going from 1 event one year to 3 the next is no small challenge.

By making the switch you are always going to have more events, and combining states likely means increasing the number of events even more. I'm not sure the transition is any easier by combining states together and in fact it might be harder since you combining organizations.

Originally Posted by marshall

I would agree. Organizing a multi-state district requires a lot of communication and organization that doesn't exist at the moment.

I'm on the fence about districts right now. There are some downsides with teams having to raise additional funds to go play at district championships. There are upsides too, mind you.

For us, it's a right royal pain because we now will likely have to find hotels and accommodations for students at multiple events along with the district championship. We also have a lot more paperwork than the average team for transporting some of our students due to the nature of our host school (It's a boarding school).

I'm very much on the fence about this and I'm curious if these smaller district events are going to be as well organized as the more focused regionals were... particularly with the change in venue and the field equipment, AV setups, etc.

Those are a lot of the same concerns that the teams in VA having moving into next year. I guess it all depends on the team and what they are used to doing. Since year 2 2363 has attended 2 Regional events each season, and has had to travel to both. For us the cost stays exactly the same if we attend the District Championship.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

None that I know of, but I'm definitely vocal about it. Sometimes if you shout loud enough, things can happen...

Districts are really the teams that comprise them. You'll find that there are plenty of teams and individuals who shout. You'll also find there are a smaller subset of teams and individuals that do. Those that do tend to be the ones that get their way.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

By making the switch you are always going to have more events, and combining states likely means increasing the number of events even more. I'm not sure the transition is any easier by combining states together and in fact it might be harder since you combining organizations.

I wouldn't doubt that it adds a lot of communication and collaboration between the organizations, but resource and funds wise I imagine it will be significantly easier.
Like I said, more than 3 events is certainly nice but I don't think it is a requirement. It might lead to larger events though which would make things more challenging and might necessitate 3 day events.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Monochron

I wouldn't doubt that it adds a lot of communication and collaboration between the organizations, but resource and funds wise I imagine it will be significantly easier.
Like I said, more than 3 events is certainly nice but I don't think it is a requirement. It might lead to larger events though which would make things more challenging and might necessitate 3 day events.

District events can only get so large. The number of events grows with your teams. Usually a district event is a max of 40 teams, so numEvents = numTeams * 2 / 40

You'd think by combining organizations you'd have more funds...

[Nathan Streeter]

Originally Posted by marshall

I would agree. Organizing a multi-state district requires a lot of communication and organization that doesn't exist at the moment.

I guess so... it seems like the regions that have moved to districts across state boundaries have managed it well by the fact that you can draw on a greater number of highly dedicated FIRSTers by broadening the district.

Originally Posted by marshall

I'm on the fence about districts right now. There are some downsides with teams having to raise additional funds to go play at district championships. There are upsides too, mind you.

I'm trying to be understanding, but I don't see how paying additional funds for an additional play can be construed as a loss... if you want to attend an additional regional in the current system you have to pay for it. Furthermore - as you know - you get to go to 2 district events for the same registration cost as 1 regional. People in NE seemed edgy about the finances beforehand, but I've not heard one complaint about the finances since the switch to districts.

Originally Posted by marshall

For us, it's a right royal pain because we now will likely have to find hotels and accommodations for students at multiple events along with the district championship. We also have a lot more paperwork than the average team for transporting some of our students due to the nature of our host school (It's a boarding school).

If the inconvenience to find accommodations is too great, then you can decline attending DCMP (or even, I suppose, your second otherwise free district event). Your team's attended NCR, Palmetto, and CMP for the last two years... that's about $15k, plus 1x 'close travel' and 1x 'distant travel.' In districts you could go to 2 districts and DCMP for less money ($10k, plus 2x 'close travel')... additionally going to 2 districts, DCMP, and CMP should be only more than your current setup by only 1x 'close travel' (about $15k, 2x 'close travel,' 1x 'distant travel').

Something that makes districts even better financially than the above might indicate is that with the district events only being 2.5 days long, rather than 3.5, you have fewer day of accommodations or busing... and one fewer day of time off school/work.

Originally Posted by marshall

I'm very much on the fence about this and I'm curious if these smaller district events are going to be as well organized as the more focused regionals were... particularly with the change in venue and the field equipment, AV setups, etc.

I've found that district events are more 'well-run' from a schedule and smoothness standpoint; most of them are less glitzy though (AV setup). The nostalgia factor was tough for me the first time I went to the Granite State District at Nashua HS rather than in the Verizon Wireless Arena (where I'd attended it week 1 for 11 years)... other than that? I've not looked back. I hope NC, SC, and more states realize the great benefits districts bring and make the switch sooner rather than later! NE is starting to grow faster again, after having experienced less growth over the prior few years.

EDIT: Districts were conceived of and formed in Michigan as a way to make FRC more cost effective... the first season of districts was 2009 in Michigan; right in the heart of the American auto industry as it was 'collapsing' in the recession... FRC not only held on in Michigan due to districts, but thrived despite the tough financial situation. It seems like this is proof enough that districts are only better for FRC financially.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

District events can only get so large. The number of events grows with your teams. Usually a district event is a max of 40 teams, so numEvents = numTeams * 2 / 40

Oh is there a hard limit? I was assuming it could scale based on the organization holding it, and the venue.

You'd think by combining organizations you'd have more funds...

Unless I'm missing something, you would have more funds unless one of the organizations can't or isn't supporting the effort as much as the other. That would probably be a good reason to not join with them in forming the district I suppose.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Oh is there a hard limit? I was assuming it could scale based on the organization holding it, and the venue.

District size is limited by the schedule - a compressed schedule for a 2 day event means that you need to limit the number of teams in order to get enough plays per team during quals - add more teams, and the plays per team decreases. Plus, with the scom pressed chedule you have less time to get everyone inspected before their first match - add more teams and you'll need to add inspectors to handle the additional load. There are a lot of ramifications for adding more teams to an event

[marshall]

Nathan, just to clarify my concerns for the financial issues about districts are not about my team but about the 4-5 other NC teams that my team helps to support in various ways throughout the season. I'm very fortunate to have a well funded team. Other teams in my area are not so fortunate and struggle with sustainability... they often don't last more than 2 seasons.

Further, my concerns are less about the total cost, though that is really going to be an issue for some teams. They are more about the timing of needing to raise the funds for the DCMP events. It's going to be a struggle at the moment.

Suggesting that a highly competitive team decline attending an event is pretty funny though.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

District size is limited by the schedule - a compressed schedule for a 2 day event ... There are a lot of ramifications for adding more teams to an event

Oh I didn't know about the hard 2-day limit then. I originally suggested that a the district event would last 3 days instead of two, but wasn't aware that that can't be done.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Oh I didn't know about the hard 2-day limit then. I originally suggested that a the district event would last 3 days instead of two, but wasn't aware that that can't be done.

I can't guarantee it's a hard limit, however the 2015 Admin manual, section 5.6, states:

All District events for the 2015 season are two-day events with the exception of District Championship events for the Michigan, Mid-Atlantic
Robotics, New England, and Pacific Northwest Districts (the Indiana District Championship is considered a two-day event).

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Oh is there a hard limit [to the size of a hypothetical district]?

There's also the "limit" that Michigan experienced in 2015, where several factors conspired to make a huge number of their teams eligible for CMP; their DCMP had to be huge in response.

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

"We're gonna need a bigger boat" - Michigan State Championship Planning Committee.

[Ari423]

Originally Posted by marshall

Further, my concerns are less about the total cost, though that is really going to be an issue for some teams. They are more about the timing of needing to raise the funds for the DCMP events. It's going to be a struggle at the moment.

Suggesting that a highly competitive team decline attending an event is pretty funny though.

My team was in the exact situation you are describing. We weren't sure if we would make it to the MAR DCMP this year, as we were right on the line of acceptance. We haven't made it in a long time (probably around 5-6 years) so we didn't budget for the $4000 attendance fee. After the last district competition in week 6, when we realized we were going to be invited, we were extatic. That lasted for about an hour, before we realized we didn't have the money to attend and payment was due that Wednesday. Three days is not enough time to raise $4000 from sponsors. Thankfully after some begging and crying our school gave us some money and members asked their families to donate so we were able to raise what we needed to attend (I think we ended up submitting the money a day late).

It was an amazing experience, but the planning (much of which I did myself) was horrendous. Arranging rides (we didn't have enough money for a bus), finding someone's pickup truck to load the robot and tools into (no trailer on short notice), getting permission to miss school. All of it was a nightmare. I personally love the district model because it lets teams like us who tend not to win regionals (never have since 1999) qualify for CMP, but I wish it cost less and gave teams more time to prepare to attend DCMP.

In the end, we were only a few qualification points away from going to CMP. Honestly, im not sure that we would have been able to attend if we did make it because we exhausted all of our funds, extra funds, and potential new sponsors trying to afford DCMP. Next season we will try do leave more room in our budget for further competitions, but that's not easy for a team that struggles to afford building and competing with a robot.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Originally Posted by Ari423

My team was in the exact situation you are describing. We weren't sure if we would make it to the MAR DCMP this year, as we were right on the line of acceptance. We haven't made it in a long time (probably around 5-6 years) so we didn't budget for the $4000 attendance fee. After the last district competition in week 6, when we realized we were going to be invited, we were extatic. That lasted for about an hour, before we realized we didn't have the money to attend and payment was due that Wednesday. Three days is not enough time to raise $4000 from sponsors. Thankfully after some begging and crying our school gave us some money and members asked their families to donate so we were able to raise what we needed to attend (I think we ended up submitting the money a day late).

It was an amazing experience, but the planning (much of which I did myself) was horrendous. Arranging rides (we didn't have enough money for a bus), finding someone's pickup truck to load the robot and tools into (no trailer on short notice), getting permission to miss school. All of it was a nightmare. I personally love the district model because it lets teams like us who tend not to win regionals (never have since 1999) qualify for CMP, but I wish it cost less and gave teams more time to prepare to attend DCMP.

In the end, we were only a few qualification points away from going to CMP. Honestly, im not sure that we would have been able to attend if we did make it because we exhausted all of our funds, extra funds, and potential new sponsors trying to afford DCMP. Next season we will try do leave more room in our budget for further competitions, but that's not easy for a team that struggles to afford building and competing with a robot.

First of all, congrats on pulling that together - $4000 in a few days is impressive. I'm wondering what FIRST will do moving forward in terms of making this easier on teams - 2.5 weeks in between DCMP and CMP is not a lot of time to pull together another $5000, plane tickets, and hotel rooms for 20-30 people. As more of FIRST goes to the district model, this will only get worse, and you have to wonder - once most/all of FRC is in districts, what will CMP registration look like? With the current system, it would be a nightmare.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Jacob Bendicksen

*I think that's the CMP registration fee, someone please correct me if I'm wrong

It is $5000.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...-payment-terms

40 teams/event is a good cap to keep, since this improves the event experience for everybody. More matches and you have a chance to see every team at the event. 60 is a lot to keep track of, and waters down closer interactions with the ones you do see. Keeps venue expenses down as well (size of the venue and time it's needed are both reduced).

If that's not enough, you're going to another event to double the value.

Go Districts!

P.S. Did anyone else read all the way to the bottom? Never heard of some of those ...