Current Districts Map. Who is next?

[KrazyCarl92]

This excuse about different regions not having enough volunteers to go to districts is silly. Having just moved to Southwestern Ohio, I begin to think about where I would volunteer at events if I choose to. Why would I volunteer at an Ohio event and take 2 days off from work when I could take 1 day off and volunteer at a district event in Indiana? If I have to use personal vacation time, quite simply I wouldn't.

In each of these regions that claim to "not have enough volunteers" there are plenty of people for which the marginal difference between 2 vacation days vs. 0 or 1 vacation days to volunteer at an event is a significant difference. So by going to districts more people will choose to volunteer. And I'm aware this isn't the case for everyone, but Saturday-Sunday district events would make the choice to volunteer very easy for me.

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

So please New York. Get it together and let's make districts happen for 2017 or 2018.

Where do I sign up to volunteer?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

This excuse about different regions not having enough volunteers to go to districts is silly. Having just moved to Southwestern Ohio, I begin to think about where I would volunteer at events if I choose to. Why would I volunteer at an Ohio event and take 2 days off from work when I could take 1 day off and volunteer at a district event in Indiana? If I have to use personal vacation time, quite simply I wouldn't.

In each of these regions that claim to "not have enough volunteers" there are plenty of people for which the marginal difference between 2 vacation days vs. 0 or 1 vacation days to volunteer at an event is a significant difference. So by going to districts more people will choose to volunteer. And I'm aware this isn't the case for everyone, but Saturday-Sunday district events would make the choice to volunteer very easy for me.



Where do I sign up to volunteer?

The issue isn't a "number of bodies" thing - switching formats means reducing the number of vacation days and (hopefully) decreasing travel distance to events. The problem is the number of experienced and trained Key Volunteers. I don't care how many new volunteers you get, you can't take someone with no experience and make them an LRI, Head Ref, or FTA overnight. It takes experience at events and some amount of training from people already in those roles before you can step up.

Plus, most volunteers get signed up in VIMS and committed in the December-February time frame... I know myself and the other MN LRI's were asked to commit last month for specific events this upcoming season - that's at least 6 months in advance, if not more. It's hard to find that level of commitment, to find people willing to commit for events well before their teams has even decided where it's going.

If MN had switched to districts 2 years ago, I would have been asked to be LRI at an event every weekend. As it stands now, I've been able to recruit enough other LRI's that I would only need to do 3 district events this year (and with the other identified LRI's we're starting training plans for, pretty soon that will be reduced to 2, even if the number of potential district events increases). Other Key Volunteer positions aren't in as good of shape here, not yet.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ehochstein

I said it once and I'll say it again, the biggest issue with MN not going to districts at the moment is the fact we don't have a non-profit. We could have all of the volunteers in the world but if we don't have an organization running it, we will still not have districts.

The mechanics of setting up a non profit is not a big deal, it is having the people who are willing to step up and do it that is the issue. I'm pretty sure that before joining the District system IN didn't have a non profit. I know you know the Executive Director of that organization and she stepped into the job as part of the switch to the District System.

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

The issue isn't a "number of bodies" thing - switching formats means reducing the number of vacation days and (hopefully) decreasing travel distance to events. The problem is the number of experienced and trained Key Volunteers. I don't care how many new volunteers you get, you can't take someone with no experience and make them an LRI, Head Ref, or FTA overnight. It takes experience at events and some amount of training from people already in those roles before you can step up.

Plus, most volunteers get signed up in VIMS and committed in the December-February time frame... I know myself and the other MN LRI's were asked to commit last month for specific events this upcoming season - that's at least 6 months in advance, if not more. It's hard to find that level of commitment, to find people willing to commit for events well before their teams has even decided where it's going.

If MN had switched to districts 2 years ago, I would have been asked to be LRI at an event every weekend. As it stands now, I've been able to recruit enough other LRI's that I would only need to do 3 district events this year (and with the other identified LRI's we're starting training plans for, pretty soon that will be reduced to 2, even if the number of potential district events increases). Other Key Volunteer positions aren't in as good of shape here, not yet.

When the PNW district was formed we had 2 LRIs, I FTA, 2 head refs. We recruited the FTAs who did their basic training at our off season events. We had people who had been RIs and Refs step up and agree to those lead positions. The first season we did have a couple of those key volunteers do 3 events, including CMP with 11 events. Last year no one did more than 2 other than our Chief LRI stepping in at an extra event when the LRI at one event was very sick and she was sent home.

In the PNW it really was a case of build it and they will come.

[Chief Hedgehog]

I love this thread. It has provided great fodder for the MNFIRST higher-ups to chew on.

Here is what I see - and this is my own opinion:

MN is an anomaly for a few reasons:
1. MN grew so large so quickly - MNFirst is not sure what is a 'trend' or what is a 'growth pang'.
2. MN has 4 incredible regionals that draw in teams from around the US and the rest of the world - it would be hard to step away from this model. The media coverage of all four events is incredible.
3. MN is not done growing. Most MPLS/StPaul area teams are now maturing into strong teams; almost all Duluth area/Arrowhead/Iron Range schools have teams; the southeast has been covered and most students have access to a team. However, the Central Minnesota area is still an untapped resource. The areas around St Cloud and Mankato have the potential to produce another 30-50 teams.
4. Because of the strong, rapid growth, it is hard to gather/train a large volunteer army - and MNFIRST is doing all that they can to help this!
5. The MSHSL adopting FRC as the State's Robotics High School program proves to be an issue. It is not the sole fact that the MSHSL adopted FRC - it is the fact that the State Tournament happens on the calendar constraints of the UofM.
6. The UofM has been a great partner with MNFIRST. If MNFIRST decides to stray from the Regional Model, we could lose the UofM as one of our oldest and best sponsors. I am not ready to accept that outcome.
7. MN needs another regional - possibly two - to gather the support from the local communities and the state's top companies to throw their support behind FRC. IF St Cloud can gain enough support (from the local companies) to bring in a FRC Regional, this could be the lynchpin for MN going to Districts.
8. ALL of MN's regionals happen on the East side (including the new IA regional) of the state. Because of this, there is no growth in volunteer numbers in the greater part of MN.

In fact, some of the larger high schools in Minnesota do not yet have an FRC team. Saint Michael-Albertville, Rogers, St Cloud Tech, St Cloud Apollo, Sartell, Princeton, and 30 other schools in Central MN do not have their own FRC team. Students from these schools have to join other teams or be apart of a conjoined team.

What most people don't realize is that St Cloud is the HUB of manufacturing in Minnesota. It is not that St Cloud has more manufacturers that other metro areas in MN - it is that the greater St Cloud area (Central MN) hosts a great many mid-level manufacturers that have not yet seen the benefits of FRC in their local communities. The CMMA (Central Minnesota Manufacturers Association) has recently started a program to help sponsor teams in the area. If the business and hospitality communities see the benefit, St Cloud has a real chance of gaining the next Regional in MN.

The next hurdle for MN is St Cloud State University. IF SCSU can come into the fold of MNFIRST - and provide MNFIRST the same ammenities that the UofM does, then Central MN can start to grow additional Volunteers. Until then, we will be relegated to bringing up Volunteer talent in the east - or from WI, IL, etc.

Before MN goes to districts, I would like to see two more Regionals. One in St Cloud, and one in Mankato. If MNFIRST finds a way for these to happen, then I see MN going to districts in short order.

And I like Regionals. It is like a poker tournament in the final round - all chips in from all participants. It also allows for great team-building events for those that have to travel great distances...

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

I love this thread. It has provided great fodder for the MNFIRST higher-ups to chew on.

Here is what I see - and this is my own opinion:

MN is an anomaly for a few reasons:
1. MN grew so large so quickly - MNFirst is not sure what is a 'trend' or what is a 'growth pang'.
2. MN has 4 incredible regionals that draw in teams from around the US and the rest of the world - it would be hard to step away from this model. The media coverage of all four events is incredible.
3. MN is not done growing. Most MPLS/StPaul area teams are now maturing into strong teams; almost all Duluth area/Arrowhead/Iron Range schools have teams; the southeast has been covered and most students have access to a team. However, the Central Minnesota area is still an untapped resource. The areas around St Cloud and Mankato have the potential to produce another 30-50 teams.
4. Because of the strong, rapid growth, it is hard to gather/train a large volunteer army - and MNFIRST is doing all that they can to help this!
5. The MSHSL adopting FRC as the State's Robotics High School program proves to be an issue. It is not the sole fact that the MSHSL adopted FRC - it is the fact that the State Tournament happens on the calendar constraints of the UofM.
6. The UofM has been a great partner with MNFIRST. If MNFIRST decides to stray from the Regional Model, we could lose the UofM as one of our oldest and best sponsors. I am not ready to accept that outcome.
7. MN needs another regional - possibly two - to gather the support from the local communities and the state's top companies to throw their support behind FRC. IF St Cloud can gain enough support (from the local companies) to bring in a FRC Regional, this could be the lynchpin for MN going to Districts.
8. ALL of MN's regionals happen on the East side (including the new IA regional) of the state. Because of this, there is no growth in volunteer numbers in the greater part of MN.

In fact, some of the larger high schools in Minnesota do not yet have an FRC team. Saint Michael-Albertville, Rogers, St Cloud Tech, St Cloud Apollo, Sartell, Princeton, and 30 other schools in Central MN do not have their own FRC team. Students from these schools have to join other teams or be apart of a conjoined team.

What most people don't realize is that St Cloud is the HUB of manufacturing in Minnesota. It is not that St Cloud has more manufacturers that other metro areas in MN - it is that the greater St Cloud area (Central MN) hosts a great many mid-level manufacturers that have not yet seen the benefits of FRC in their local communities. The CMMA (Central Minnesota Manufacturers Association) has recently started a program to help sponsor teams in the area. If the business and hospitality communities see the benefit, St Cloud has a real chance of gaining the next Regional in MN.

The next hurdle for MN is St Cloud State University. IF SCSU can come into the fold of MNFIRST - and provide MNFIRST the same ammenities that the UofM does, then Central MN can start to grow additional Volunteers. Until then, we will be relegated to bringing up Volunteer talent in the east - or from WI, IL, etc.

Before MN goes to districts, I would like to see two more Regionals. One in St Cloud, and one in Mankato. If MNFIRST finds a way for these to happen, then I see MN going to districts in short order.

And I like Regionals. It is like a poker tournament in the final round - all chips in from all participants. It also allows for great team-building events for those that have to travel great distances...

I'm curious about a few things since I've never participated in the regional model before. So what would adding two regionals add to benefit FIRST in MN? Is it just to get the community to rally behind districts? Or would that be to help MN train volunteers to the higher positions. If MN adds more regionals, more teams would join and MN would be in the same situation. MN would need more districts with more teams after adding more regionals. Either which way MN goes, MN will need more volunteers. MN had 192 teams last year. NE district had 175 teams last year. They had 10 district events and the championship. MN would probably need around 10-12 district event and the championship. The championship would be Like a regional volunteer wise so the 10-12 district events would be like the volunteers from 3 regionals. With that said, district events are smaller which requires a little less volunteers (by my guess) since each district event would be around 35-42 teams where the regionals in MN were around 62 teams at each. NE had a district championship with 60 teams so that would be the equivalent of a regional. The. You could host that event at a regional facility. My thoughts are, if MN adds more regionals or they switch to districts, the volunteer problem would still be there. The only reason to stick with regionals over districts would be due to Sponsors, lack community support, or lack of facilities. And I feel like sponsors wouldn't care as much because with districts, you'll be able to send more teams to worlds. Last year, NE had a guaranteed 35 spots not including wait list. MN only had 24 spots guaranteed last year if my math is correct. And NE is a smaller district. So I could see MN having 38 spots for worlds. That would make many robot sponsors happy, wouldn't it? Thanks for reading. I'm curious to see how close or far off I am.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

5. The MSHSL adopting FRC as the State's Robotics High School program proves to be an issue. It is not the sole fact that the MSHSL adopted FRC - it is the fact that the State Tournament happens on the calendar constraints of the UofM.

Just a note on this... Yes, we have to work with the U of M calendar to get a venue for the State Championship, but that time of year it's actually not that difficult. The hockey arena across the street (you know, the build with AC) is usually being used for graduation stuff, but where we are isn't (probably because it has no A.C.!). For a large part the Championship date is based on the earliest date we can expect robots to be shipped back from Champs with expedited shipping. That is really our biggest constraint in scheduling it each year.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

6. The UofM has been a great partner with MNFIRST. If MNFIRST decides to stray from the Regional Model, we could lose the UofM as one of our oldest and best sponsors. I am not ready to accept that outcome.

Is there any actual reason you believe this could be the case?

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Is there any actual reason you believe this could be the case?

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by DareDad

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

Source?

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

I mean, to me, UMN seems like the most likely candidate for holding the State Championship event, provided that was a typical 60 team event. Unless something changes, I don't see UMN support for the program waning any time soon-- I know the Dean of the College of Science and Engineering is a fan of the program and getting a variety of students on campus. And even if we didn't have the State Championship here, I would be very surprised if we didn't have at least one District event.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

I wouldn't go that far. I think it's highly likely that the U of M would be doing everything possible to host the District Championship at that point, which, as a 3 day event, would give them the same impact they have today. This assumption, however, hinges on two rather important points. First, that the U of M can get us into the schedule every year on week 7. With a regional model, it's a lot easier as we can easily move around a bit - week 5 vs week 6 doesn't make much of a difference. Second, we have to assume that we could fit a form of district championship into the U of M facilities. If it's just 60 teams, that's easy. If it's more, it becomes significantly harder. If we need to do it like Michigan with 2 fields, it would need to be split into two separate events like the double regional now, or moved to a different facility where we could fit 120 teams and 2 fields under the same roof (like the DECC).

But however things end up shaking out in the coming years, I think it's safe to say that both FIRST and the U of M are interested in maintaining and strengthening our relationship.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

Let me apply some facts to your hand wringing...

Kettering which, while always a huge supporter of FIRST (thanks for paying for college guys), went from a small off season event to holding an official event running tours, giving NEW scholarships, building an entire space for local FRC teams to practice, hosting workshops, and even announcing winners of scholarships as part of the closing ceremonies of MSC (which is televised). FRC alumni at Kettering during this time rose from ~9% of the student body to ~%25 and, from what I've heard, has continued growing.

- One of the students who was responsible for FRC recruitment from 2008-2011

[Aren Siekmeier]

Also remember that Kettering continues to host a district event. It doesn't have to be a 60 team regional (or two of them). MN could easily fit a 40 team Twin Cities district event in each of Williams and Mariucci, in fact it would be much more comfortable.

I understand that what we have right now seems pretty cool. But change doesn't mean completely losing that, just modifying it. Smaller, more numerous events is important for the involvement and inspiration of more kids in our area, and we want to make it cooler.

DCMP is also a great candidate for the U. I personally like the giant 100 team type event MI is going for, and this might be necessary if FIRST keeps inviting so many teams to champs (192/2892 teams in MN earns 53 spots at an 800 team doublechamps), but this could require a different venue. However, I don't doubt our resourceful volunteers, organizers, supporters, and sponsors will come up with something, in any case.

Edit: Also wanted to mention that the DECC could work great for a double district event, with 80 teams instead of 120, also less crowded...

[Aren Siekmeier]

This is a good read for this discussion, especially the first page and a half. Especially especially Q4.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2804

[logank013]

As some were saying above, the University would be great for a DCMP. NE FIRST with 175 teams had 60 teams at their DCMP with a total of 35 going to Worlds. That would be perfect for a regional sized DCMP. MN would have like 62 teams at DCMP and send 36 teams or so to worlds. That's be good for the university I would think except it would be only 1 regional versus 2.