Current Districts Map. Who is next?

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Unpopular suggestion that is probably borderline crazy... The scale of MN presents an issue, they would need at least 2 events a week during competition to go to districts. From some mapping I did a couple weeks ago I noticed that the overwhelming majority of MN teams are fairly clustered. I propose a reduction in team population in the short term (3-5 years). Merging together multiple teams would result in smaller team populations, likely reduce strain on smaller teams and reduce competition for sponsors. It could also make it feasible to transition to the District model due to reduced event requirements.

If you say that the volunteer base can support 8 events... reduce to 160 teams. It should be possible.

I work with a lot of different FRC teams in Minnesota, often times I get the late night phone call or email from a coach that needs help installing labview on their computer, or needs help figuring out how to CAD or just wants general support on building, programming or wiring of their robot. During the build season I'll be up late at night answering these emails trying to support teams to the best of my ability. Currently we don't have enough experience in Minnesota to truly run 192 FRC teams the way they are supposed to be run, in my opinion, about 50 of the teams are missing out on the full FRC inspiration and experience due to not having enough experience in the state. If you were to reduce the number of teams and switch to districts at the same time, you could more effectively reach and inspire the students Minnesota. You would be getting more bang for your buck.

I said it once and I'll say it again, the biggest issue with MN not going to districts at the moment is the fact we don't have a non-profit. We could have all of the volunteers in the world but if we don't have an organization running it, we will still not have districts.

Originally Posted by DareDad

The volunteer issue is one thing and over 3 or 4 years could be addressed.

The bigger issue to me though is keeping it loud. Last year, Minnesota had 4 regionals. The two Duluth regionals are held under one roof, with 123 teams last year in the DECC. The Minneapolis regionals are held in two buildings next door to each other again with 123 teams last year.

Both of those events get real media attention. The local papers and television stations do stories on the events every year. In Duluth, one of the local teams has partnered with the newspaper to put a wrap over the paper during the event so everyone who gets a paper knows what's going on at the DECC that week.

That's not loud, that's LOUD.

Minnesota would lose that going to districts.

People talk about how districts are awesome because teams get two plays where they'll see maybe 60 or 70 different teams across those events. But in Minnesota there's already 122 other teams at these double regionals. It would be a step backward for teams in Minnesota.

Not to mention, we've had Chinese, and Turkish teams at Minnesota events. We've had the Hawaiian Kids out. We'd lose those international and long distance participants if we went to districts.

Quite frankly FIRST should be using Minnesota as a model for the rest of the program, not trying to move Minnesota away from what is currently the loudest program in the world.

Who won the Make it Loud Award at championships last year and what state was he from? What was the reasoning he won the Make it Loud Award? Here is a link if you don't remember.

As a coach of a FRC team in Minnesota I feel it would be a step forward to switch to districts. Right now, my team gets 10 qualification matches in a good year for $5000, if we were in districts, we would be getting 24 matches for the same amount of money. In addition to that, there would be a potential to host a district event at our high school on a Friday which would in turn cause the school population as a whole to get more involved. Our cafeteria is right next to the Main Gym and it is pretty much impossible to miss anything going on in the gym during lunch.

[KrazyCarl92]

This excuse about different regions not having enough volunteers to go to districts is silly. Having just moved to Southwestern Ohio, I begin to think about where I would volunteer at events if I choose to. Why would I volunteer at an Ohio event and take 2 days off from work when I could take 1 day off and volunteer at a district event in Indiana? If I have to use personal vacation time, quite simply I wouldn't.

In each of these regions that claim to "not have enough volunteers" there are plenty of people for which the marginal difference between 2 vacation days vs. 0 or 1 vacation days to volunteer at an event is a significant difference. So by going to districts more people will choose to volunteer. And I'm aware this isn't the case for everyone, but Saturday-Sunday district events would make the choice to volunteer very easy for me.

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

So please New York. Get it together and let's make districts happen for 2017 or 2018.

Where do I sign up to volunteer?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

This excuse about different regions not having enough volunteers to go to districts is silly. Having just moved to Southwestern Ohio, I begin to think about where I would volunteer at events if I choose to. Why would I volunteer at an Ohio event and take 2 days off from work when I could take 1 day off and volunteer at a district event in Indiana? If I have to use personal vacation time, quite simply I wouldn't.

In each of these regions that claim to "not have enough volunteers" there are plenty of people for which the marginal difference between 2 vacation days vs. 0 or 1 vacation days to volunteer at an event is a significant difference. So by going to districts more people will choose to volunteer. And I'm aware this isn't the case for everyone, but Saturday-Sunday district events would make the choice to volunteer very easy for me.



Where do I sign up to volunteer?

The issue isn't a "number of bodies" thing - switching formats means reducing the number of vacation days and (hopefully) decreasing travel distance to events. The problem is the number of experienced and trained Key Volunteers. I don't care how many new volunteers you get, you can't take someone with no experience and make them an LRI, Head Ref, or FTA overnight. It takes experience at events and some amount of training from people already in those roles before you can step up.

Plus, most volunteers get signed up in VIMS and committed in the December-February time frame... I know myself and the other MN LRI's were asked to commit last month for specific events this upcoming season - that's at least 6 months in advance, if not more. It's hard to find that level of commitment, to find people willing to commit for events well before their teams has even decided where it's going.

If MN had switched to districts 2 years ago, I would have been asked to be LRI at an event every weekend. As it stands now, I've been able to recruit enough other LRI's that I would only need to do 3 district events this year (and with the other identified LRI's we're starting training plans for, pretty soon that will be reduced to 2, even if the number of potential district events increases). Other Key Volunteer positions aren't in as good of shape here, not yet.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The bigger issue to me though is keeping it loud. Last year, Minnesota had 4 regionals. The two Duluth regionals are held under one roof, with 123 teams last year in the DECC. The Minneapolis regionals are held in two buildings next door to each other again with 123 teams last year.

Both of those events get real media attention. The local papers and television stations do stories on the events every year. In Duluth, one of the local teams has partnered with the newspaper to put a wrap over the paper during the event so everyone who gets a paper knows what's going on at the DECC that week.

That's not loud, that's LOUD.

Originally Posted by AGPapa

Sounds like it would make an excellent State Championship.

The Duluth double-regional venue would probably make for a rather loud two-field state championship similar to Michigan's this year.

If MN sends half of its 192 teams (96) to MNSC, each team could have 12 qualifications matches with 96 matches played on each field, which is comparable to the current Duluth regionals (90 qualification matches at NLR, 95 at LSR).

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

The Duluth double-regional venue would probably make for a rather loud two-field state championship similar to Michigan's this year.

If MN sends half of its 192 teams (96) to MNSC, each team could have 12 qualifications matches with 96 matches played on each field, which is comparable to the current Duluth regionals (90 qualification matches at NLR, 95 at LSR).

Duluth wouldn't make a ton of sense for a state championship location. While the venue is fantastic for accommodating two fields and large number of teams, it is about two hours from the Twin Cities, where the vast majority of MN FRC teams are from. While that isn't prohibitive for most (any?) teams in terms of sheer distance, it does mean that most teams would need to get hotel rooms. It also means fewer spectators, as parents would have to make the trek, and you wouldn't have nearly as big of a population to pull in random passer-bys.

If we are talking about a bigger-than-just-Minnesota district, the Twin Cities becomes even more attractive.

But talking about a (in-season) state (or bigger) championship is getting far from the original discussion, and is jumping the gun by at least a year anyway.

[logank013]

Thanks for all that replied to my thoughts about the Purdue sponsorships. I honestly didn't know anything for sure I was just guessing (I always forget to mention that in my posts ) thanks for commenting because now I know the facts

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ehochstein

I said it once and I'll say it again, the biggest issue with MN not going to districts at the moment is the fact we don't have a non-profit. We could have all of the volunteers in the world but if we don't have an organization running it, we will still not have districts.

The mechanics of setting up a non profit is not a big deal, it is having the people who are willing to step up and do it that is the issue. I'm pretty sure that before joining the District system IN didn't have a non profit. I know you know the Executive Director of that organization and she stepped into the job as part of the switch to the District System.

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

The issue isn't a "number of bodies" thing - switching formats means reducing the number of vacation days and (hopefully) decreasing travel distance to events. The problem is the number of experienced and trained Key Volunteers. I don't care how many new volunteers you get, you can't take someone with no experience and make them an LRI, Head Ref, or FTA overnight. It takes experience at events and some amount of training from people already in those roles before you can step up.

Plus, most volunteers get signed up in VIMS and committed in the December-February time frame... I know myself and the other MN LRI's were asked to commit last month for specific events this upcoming season - that's at least 6 months in advance, if not more. It's hard to find that level of commitment, to find people willing to commit for events well before their teams has even decided where it's going.

If MN had switched to districts 2 years ago, I would have been asked to be LRI at an event every weekend. As it stands now, I've been able to recruit enough other LRI's that I would only need to do 3 district events this year (and with the other identified LRI's we're starting training plans for, pretty soon that will be reduced to 2, even if the number of potential district events increases). Other Key Volunteer positions aren't in as good of shape here, not yet.

When the PNW district was formed we had 2 LRIs, I FTA, 2 head refs. We recruited the FTAs who did their basic training at our off season events. We had people who had been RIs and Refs step up and agree to those lead positions. The first season we did have a couple of those key volunteers do 3 events, including CMP with 11 events. Last year no one did more than 2 other than our Chief LRI stepping in at an extra event when the LRI at one event was very sick and she was sent home.

In the PNW it really was a case of build it and they will come.

[Chief Hedgehog]

I love this thread. It has provided great fodder for the MNFIRST higher-ups to chew on.

Here is what I see - and this is my own opinion:

MN is an anomaly for a few reasons:
1. MN grew so large so quickly - MNFirst is not sure what is a 'trend' or what is a 'growth pang'.
2. MN has 4 incredible regionals that draw in teams from around the US and the rest of the world - it would be hard to step away from this model. The media coverage of all four events is incredible.
3. MN is not done growing. Most MPLS/StPaul area teams are now maturing into strong teams; almost all Duluth area/Arrowhead/Iron Range schools have teams; the southeast has been covered and most students have access to a team. However, the Central Minnesota area is still an untapped resource. The areas around St Cloud and Mankato have the potential to produce another 30-50 teams.
4. Because of the strong, rapid growth, it is hard to gather/train a large volunteer army - and MNFIRST is doing all that they can to help this!
5. The MSHSL adopting FRC as the State's Robotics High School program proves to be an issue. It is not the sole fact that the MSHSL adopted FRC - it is the fact that the State Tournament happens on the calendar constraints of the UofM.
6. The UofM has been a great partner with MNFIRST. If MNFIRST decides to stray from the Regional Model, we could lose the UofM as one of our oldest and best sponsors. I am not ready to accept that outcome.
7. MN needs another regional - possibly two - to gather the support from the local communities and the state's top companies to throw their support behind FRC. IF St Cloud can gain enough support (from the local companies) to bring in a FRC Regional, this could be the lynchpin for MN going to Districts.
8. ALL of MN's regionals happen on the East side (including the new IA regional) of the state. Because of this, there is no growth in volunteer numbers in the greater part of MN.

In fact, some of the larger high schools in Minnesota do not yet have an FRC team. Saint Michael-Albertville, Rogers, St Cloud Tech, St Cloud Apollo, Sartell, Princeton, and 30 other schools in Central MN do not have their own FRC team. Students from these schools have to join other teams or be apart of a conjoined team.

What most people don't realize is that St Cloud is the HUB of manufacturing in Minnesota. It is not that St Cloud has more manufacturers that other metro areas in MN - it is that the greater St Cloud area (Central MN) hosts a great many mid-level manufacturers that have not yet seen the benefits of FRC in their local communities. The CMMA (Central Minnesota Manufacturers Association) has recently started a program to help sponsor teams in the area. If the business and hospitality communities see the benefit, St Cloud has a real chance of gaining the next Regional in MN.

The next hurdle for MN is St Cloud State University. IF SCSU can come into the fold of MNFIRST - and provide MNFIRST the same ammenities that the UofM does, then Central MN can start to grow additional Volunteers. Until then, we will be relegated to bringing up Volunteer talent in the east - or from WI, IL, etc.

Before MN goes to districts, I would like to see two more Regionals. One in St Cloud, and one in Mankato. If MNFIRST finds a way for these to happen, then I see MN going to districts in short order.

And I like Regionals. It is like a poker tournament in the final round - all chips in from all participants. It also allows for great team-building events for those that have to travel great distances...

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

I love this thread. It has provided great fodder for the MNFIRST higher-ups to chew on.

Here is what I see - and this is my own opinion:

MN is an anomaly for a few reasons:
1. MN grew so large so quickly - MNFirst is not sure what is a 'trend' or what is a 'growth pang'.
2. MN has 4 incredible regionals that draw in teams from around the US and the rest of the world - it would be hard to step away from this model. The media coverage of all four events is incredible.
3. MN is not done growing. Most MPLS/StPaul area teams are now maturing into strong teams; almost all Duluth area/Arrowhead/Iron Range schools have teams; the southeast has been covered and most students have access to a team. However, the Central Minnesota area is still an untapped resource. The areas around St Cloud and Mankato have the potential to produce another 30-50 teams.
4. Because of the strong, rapid growth, it is hard to gather/train a large volunteer army - and MNFIRST is doing all that they can to help this!
5. The MSHSL adopting FRC as the State's Robotics High School program proves to be an issue. It is not the sole fact that the MSHSL adopted FRC - it is the fact that the State Tournament happens on the calendar constraints of the UofM.
6. The UofM has been a great partner with MNFIRST. If MNFIRST decides to stray from the Regional Model, we could lose the UofM as one of our oldest and best sponsors. I am not ready to accept that outcome.
7. MN needs another regional - possibly two - to gather the support from the local communities and the state's top companies to throw their support behind FRC. IF St Cloud can gain enough support (from the local companies) to bring in a FRC Regional, this could be the lynchpin for MN going to Districts.
8. ALL of MN's regionals happen on the East side (including the new IA regional) of the state. Because of this, there is no growth in volunteer numbers in the greater part of MN.

In fact, some of the larger high schools in Minnesota do not yet have an FRC team. Saint Michael-Albertville, Rogers, St Cloud Tech, St Cloud Apollo, Sartell, Princeton, and 30 other schools in Central MN do not have their own FRC team. Students from these schools have to join other teams or be apart of a conjoined team.

What most people don't realize is that St Cloud is the HUB of manufacturing in Minnesota. It is not that St Cloud has more manufacturers that other metro areas in MN - it is that the greater St Cloud area (Central MN) hosts a great many mid-level manufacturers that have not yet seen the benefits of FRC in their local communities. The CMMA (Central Minnesota Manufacturers Association) has recently started a program to help sponsor teams in the area. If the business and hospitality communities see the benefit, St Cloud has a real chance of gaining the next Regional in MN.

The next hurdle for MN is St Cloud State University. IF SCSU can come into the fold of MNFIRST - and provide MNFIRST the same ammenities that the UofM does, then Central MN can start to grow additional Volunteers. Until then, we will be relegated to bringing up Volunteer talent in the east - or from WI, IL, etc.

Before MN goes to districts, I would like to see two more Regionals. One in St Cloud, and one in Mankato. If MNFIRST finds a way for these to happen, then I see MN going to districts in short order.

And I like Regionals. It is like a poker tournament in the final round - all chips in from all participants. It also allows for great team-building events for those that have to travel great distances...

I'm curious about a few things since I've never participated in the regional model before. So what would adding two regionals add to benefit FIRST in MN? Is it just to get the community to rally behind districts? Or would that be to help MN train volunteers to the higher positions. If MN adds more regionals, more teams would join and MN would be in the same situation. MN would need more districts with more teams after adding more regionals. Either which way MN goes, MN will need more volunteers. MN had 192 teams last year. NE district had 175 teams last year. They had 10 district events and the championship. MN would probably need around 10-12 district event and the championship. The championship would be Like a regional volunteer wise so the 10-12 district events would be like the volunteers from 3 regionals. With that said, district events are smaller which requires a little less volunteers (by my guess) since each district event would be around 35-42 teams where the regionals in MN were around 62 teams at each. NE had a district championship with 60 teams so that would be the equivalent of a regional. The. You could host that event at a regional facility. My thoughts are, if MN adds more regionals or they switch to districts, the volunteer problem would still be there. The only reason to stick with regionals over districts would be due to Sponsors, lack community support, or lack of facilities. And I feel like sponsors wouldn't care as much because with districts, you'll be able to send more teams to worlds. Last year, NE had a guaranteed 35 spots not including wait list. MN only had 24 spots guaranteed last year if my math is correct. And NE is a smaller district. So I could see MN having 38 spots for worlds. That would make many robot sponsors happy, wouldn't it? Thanks for reading. I'm curious to see how close or far off I am.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

5. The MSHSL adopting FRC as the State's Robotics High School program proves to be an issue. It is not the sole fact that the MSHSL adopted FRC - it is the fact that the State Tournament happens on the calendar constraints of the UofM.

Just a note on this... Yes, we have to work with the U of M calendar to get a venue for the State Championship, but that time of year it's actually not that difficult. The hockey arena across the street (you know, the build with AC) is usually being used for graduation stuff, but where we are isn't (probably because it has no A.C.!). For a large part the Championship date is based on the earliest date we can expect robots to be shipped back from Champs with expedited shipping. That is really our biggest constraint in scheduling it each year.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Mr V

The mechanics of setting up a non profit is not a big deal, it is having the people who are willing to step up and do it that is the issue. I'm pretty sure that before joining the District system IN didn't have a non profit.

According to my email archive, IndianaFIRST, Inc. was established as a 501(c)3 organization in summer 2011. The first IRS records I found were from April 2012. Districts in Indiana starting being pursued in earnest more than a year later, with a pilot "state championship" event, and didn't come about until the 2015 season.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

6. The UofM has been a great partner with MNFIRST. If MNFIRST decides to stray from the Regional Model, we could lose the UofM as one of our oldest and best sponsors. I am not ready to accept that outcome.

Is there any actual reason you believe this could be the case?

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Is there any actual reason you believe this could be the case?

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by DareDad

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

Source?

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

I mean, to me, UMN seems like the most likely candidate for holding the State Championship event, provided that was a typical 60 team event. Unless something changes, I don't see UMN support for the program waning any time soon-- I know the Dean of the College of Science and Engineering is a fan of the program and getting a variety of students on campus. And even if we didn't have the State Championship here, I would be very surprised if we didn't have at least one District event.