Current Districts Map. Who is next?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

I wouldn't go that far. I think it's highly likely that the U of M would be doing everything possible to host the District Championship at that point, which, as a 3 day event, would give them the same impact they have today. This assumption, however, hinges on two rather important points. First, that the U of M can get us into the schedule every year on week 7. With a regional model, it's a lot easier as we can easily move around a bit - week 5 vs week 6 doesn't make much of a difference. Second, we have to assume that we could fit a form of district championship into the U of M facilities. If it's just 60 teams, that's easy. If it's more, it becomes significantly harder. If we need to do it like Michigan with 2 fields, it would need to be split into two separate events like the double regional now, or moved to a different facility where we could fit 120 teams and 2 fields under the same roof (like the DECC).

But however things end up shaking out in the coming years, I think it's safe to say that both FIRST and the U of M are interested in maintaining and strengthening our relationship.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The two Minneapolis regionals are hosted on the U of M campus. During the regionals there are continuous tours of campus departments which has led to a measurable uptick in students attending the U of M College of Science and Engineering.

That level of involvement with the school would be difficult in a district model where participation from the U of M would likely be a kid behind a 2'x6' table with some pamphlets.

Let me apply some facts to your hand wringing...

Kettering which, while always a huge supporter of FIRST (thanks for paying for college guys), went from a small off season event to holding an official event running tours, giving NEW scholarships, building an entire space for local FRC teams to practice, hosting workshops, and even announcing winners of scholarships as part of the closing ceremonies of MSC (which is televised). FRC alumni at Kettering during this time rose from ~9% of the student body to ~%25 and, from what I've heard, has continued growing.

- One of the students who was responsible for FRC recruitment from 2008-2011

[Aren Siekmeier]

Also remember that Kettering continues to host a district event. It doesn't have to be a 60 team regional (or two of them). MN could easily fit a 40 team Twin Cities district event in each of Williams and Mariucci, in fact it would be much more comfortable.

I understand that what we have right now seems pretty cool. But change doesn't mean completely losing that, just modifying it. Smaller, more numerous events is important for the involvement and inspiration of more kids in our area, and we want to make it cooler.

DCMP is also a great candidate for the U. I personally like the giant 100 team type event MI is going for, and this might be necessary if FIRST keeps inviting so many teams to champs (192/2892 teams in MN earns 53 spots at an 800 team doublechamps), but this could require a different venue. However, I don't doubt our resourceful volunteers, organizers, supporters, and sponsors will come up with something, in any case.

Edit: Also wanted to mention that the DECC could work great for a double district event, with 80 teams instead of 120, also less crowded...

[Aren Siekmeier]

This is a good read for this discussion, especially the first page and a half. Especially especially Q4.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2804

[logank013]

As some were saying above, the University would be great for a DCMP. NE FIRST with 175 teams had 60 teams at their DCMP with a total of 35 going to Worlds. That would be perfect for a regional sized DCMP. MN would have like 62 teams at DCMP and send 36 teams or so to worlds. That's be good for the university I would think except it would be only 1 regional versus 2.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

The next hurdle for MN is St Cloud State University. IF SCSU can come into the fold of MNFIRST - and provide MNFIRST the same ammenities that the UofM does, then Central MN can start to grow additional Volunteers. Until then, we will be relegated to bringing up Volunteer talent in the east - or from WI, IL, etc.

I'm not buying it.

While I fully agree that St. Cloud is a great opportunity for FIRST in MN, I don't believe that starting an event there (or switching to districts) will make more volunteers start showing up.

I understand it has worked in other regions of the US, but we haven't seen that success in MN. Despite the Duluth regionals having been around for a few years, we are still in an incredibly difficult uphill battle to get more volunteers from Duluth to volunteer for Duluth events.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Tanis

I'm not buying it.

While I fully agree that St. Cloud is a great opportunity for FIRST in MN, I don't believe that starting an event there (or switching to districts) will make more volunteers start showing up.

I understand it has worked in other regions of the US, but we haven't seen that success in MN. Despite the Duluth regionals having been around for a few years, we are still in an incredibly difficult uphill battle to get more volunteers from Duluth to volunteer for Duluth events.

Because everyone is too busy competing at Duluth because there are only 2 weeks of regionals...

Minnesota is the only region that does this and appears to be the only region in which the "start it and they will come (re: volunteers)" model isn't working.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Tanis

I understand it has worked in other regions of the US, but we haven't seen that success in MN. Despite the Duluth regionals having been around for a few years, we are still in an incredibly difficult uphill battle to get more volunteers from Duluth to volunteer for Duluth events.

I've seen volunteers turned away at the Duluth Regional because we already had too many helping hands. I've spoken with potential volunteers that signed up and then were told they were no longer needed when they arrived at the event.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by ehochstein

I've seen volunteers turned away at the Duluth Regional because we already had too many helping hands. I've spoken with potential volunteers that signed up and then were told they were no longer needed when they arrived at the event.

From earlier posts, it seems that Minnesota is short of key volunteers. It's not a head count problem.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Aren Siekmeier

This is a good read for this discussion, especially the first page and a half. Especially especially Q4.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2804

After reading through Q2, I think what Minnesota needs is to lose many of its key sponsors of FRC , I guess I'll get to work on that since no one else will.

On a more serious note, I think there is something very important to be taken from Q2, which is that Michigan needed a catalyst for change before they invented this crazy new system. Right now, I don't see any major catalyst in MN pushing us along into districts, part of me hopes I'm wrong.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

Right now, I don't see any major catalyst in MN pushing us along into districts, part of me hopes I'm wrong.

Seems like FIRST HQ is trying to push all feasible regions into districts.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

After reading through Q2, I think what Minnesota needs is to lose many of its key sponsors of FRC , I guess I'll get to work on that since no one else will.

On a more serious note, I think there is something very important to be taken from Q2, which is that Michigan needed a catalyst for change before they invented this crazy new system. Right now, I don't see any major catalyst in MN pushing us along into districts, part of me hopes I'm wrong.

We have that catalyst. We cannot expect more team growth, or even many existing teams to do well, unless the program becomes less expensive. An indirect way to do this is to provide more opportunities for the same cost to the teams. MI also reduces their own costs, which allows them to go further with the contributions they get. Right now FIRST isn't entertaining any reductions in reg costs, but this is the most direct way to reduce team expenses. PNW's latest approach to its finances also puts pressure on their organization to reduce its costs.

Going to districts is not downsizing. It's making current operations more efficient to enable upsizing.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Unpopular suggestion that is probably borderline crazy... The scale of MN presents an issue, they would need at least 2 events a week during competition to go to districts. From some mapping I did a couple weeks ago I noticed that the overwhelming majority of MN teams are fairly clustered. I propose a reduction in team population in the short term (3-5 years). Merging together multiple teams would result in smaller team populations, likely reduce strain on smaller teams and reduce competition for sponsors. It could also make it feasible to transition to the District model due to reduced event requirements.

If you say that the volunteer base can support 8 events... reduce to 160 teams. It should be possible.

This is a fantastic idea and makes the most sense when it comes to sustainability. Problem is that many people in the FRC world don't have too much common sense when it comes to sustainability and even FIRST just wants more teams even if they flounder around and waste grant money and funding from sponsors.

Personally, I think combining teams would be a cool idea. Difficult logistically, perhaps, but effective nonetheless.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

I'd like an Ohio/Eastern Kentucky/Western PA/West Virginia district, but the problem is volunteers in the region. For some reason, we just can't get enough of them to run a good district.

I can definitely see either a SoCal+Arizona and a NorCal+Nevada district, or just a combined California (but that is A LOT of driving...we drove from SF to San Diego on our honeymoon, and I would NOT want to drive it for a competition). I'm surprised Texas isn't already a district. New York+Southern Ontario is a possibility as well, but I'm sure that district would get swallowed up by the Canadian teams there, so I'm not sure how much New York would really WANT to be in that district.

I can't wait for this to happen! I think the issue of volunteers is the same as everywhere else. You won't get enough volunteers until we actually make the switch, because there are currently fewer volunteer spots in the first place. Nobody is going to volunteer for a regional if all/most of the volunteer spots are filled, because they think that they will just be standing around doing nothing. But if there were a shortage of volunteers, you would see more. For example, there currently are not any FRC events in WV (WVROX 2014 was the first ever), so there are practically no FRC volunteers in our state, except for those that volunteer where their team competes. However, if we were to host a district event in West Virginia, we would get the volunteers. In addition, districts makes it easier to start teams, therefore getting more people involved in FRC to volunteer. Plus, we have many parents that would volunteer at events, but can't travel as far as we do for regionals (they can't get off to go 6 hours away with us). But if there were a district event in their hometown or very close by, they would be more likely to volunteer. I'm sure we aren't alone in this.

This was the main concern for WVROX. We thought getting enough volunteers was going to be mission impossible. But, people pulled through, and we ended up getting enough and then some. We probably would have had more if WVU hadn't cut off volunteer registration so early. Most of our volunteers, with the exception of a handful of people were first-time FRC volunteers. And they would volunteer at a future WV district event, I have no doubt.

It's like a "build it and they will come" kind of thing. You're likely not going to get enough volunteers until there are enough volunteer slots to put the people into.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

This is a fantastic idea and makes the most sense when it comes to sustainability. Problem is that many people in the FRC world don't have too much common sense when it comes to sustainability and even FIRST just wants more teams even if they flounder around and waste grant money and funding from sponsors.

Personally, I think combining teams would be a cool idea. Difficult logistically, perhaps, but effective nonetheless.

I think this is ridiculous. I'm certainly not a proponent of "expand at all cost" or measuring program health by team quantity, but suggesting to combine existing and sustaining teams for the sake of reducing headcount is absurd.

In certain scenarios it may work out beneficially (especially for teams that are currently floundering), but to use it as a blanket statement is far fetched. The vast majority of teams operate in a school-based system for a reason. While there are plenty of success stories outside of that system, don't interpret that to mean that any team can break away from their school and survive. Once you start merging teams, you're breaking that school-based system. You're forcing teams to haggle with logistics (student transportation/liability/meeting times/recruitment/funding/etc) that they wouldn't have to otherwise. In many cases, interested students may not be able to participate in a function that requires them to be transported off campus or meet outside of traditional afterschool hours.

In other words, what good is creating "sustaining" teams if you reduce the capacity for those teams to positively impact their students and community?