Can someone in the Irving TX area "draft" this young man?

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Monochron

There is really no need to qualify that. It is nearly exactly what happened. ... Your continued portrayal of it as simply "the police questioned him to long" is pretty insulting to him.

There is every need to qualify that. You guys are throwing a teacher under the bus, accusing him/her of being racist when he/she may be just following zero tolerance procedures in order to keep his/her job. The same goes for the school administration - they passed the buck up to the police. Why is it so hard for you to imagine that this is mostly just ridiculous bureaucracy?

I have never said simply "the police questioned him too long". You added "simply" for effect. After being called by the school administration the police also have standard operating procedures. Each time I have said I thought they should not have questioned the student for so long. And many times in this tread I have said their could be a racist element but it is irresponsible to label teachers, administrators and police officers as racist without the facts.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Madison

I think most reasonable people would describe being placed into handcuffs, fingerprinted and having a mugshot taken as being arrested.

The student was detained and processed but never charged. And this was all in a juvenile facility, not real jail (though still terrifying to the student). The student's record will not show that we was arrested or charged, even as a juvenile. None of this should have happened. It is ridiculous. My point is runaway bureaucracy, zero tolerance policies and the wording of the relevant Texas law are obviously at fault. Racism may or may not be a factor and innocents should not be maligned until the facts are known.

[teku14]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Are you sure? And if so, who cares? I have been under the impression that he followed some instructions (alla, Instructables) and used kit type parts to build it. Whichever of those is true, awesome! I wish I had had the initiative to do that at age 14.

I'll address many of the responses I've seen here.
1. He said so himself during many recorded interviews that it was his invention. (I'm surprised our FIRST community Memebers hasn't been able to identify that he hadn't made the clock from the photo)
2. He literally opened up a clock case and spilled its innards out onto box. That's fine also I guess sure we'll applaud that as curiosity or whatever
3. If that is the case then should we encourage students the way we are Ahmed? Does every 10-14 year old (who I've seen many do remarkable things) get huge scholarship funds, internship opportunities, and a White House visit?
4. I certainly hope you didn't have the initiative to plaguerize at his age because that's exactly what he's done.

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Monochron

What media are you watching? I have only seen crazy sentiments like that from nutso "media" outlets or public figures like Sarah Palin. Everything I have seen on CNN, NBC, Forbes, and even some of what I have seen on Fox (though I don't see that often) has been on his side.

I think that guys point was the opposite of what you are saying. It looks like he is suggesting that our support of Ahmed might have been influenced by "misleading" sources.

I'm mostly talking about websites. Many websites are taking the main focus from his wrongful arresting to the fact he didn't invent the clock. Many sites are more concerned that he didn't invent the clock rather than the fact he got arrested. Sorry I wasn't very clear.

[teku14]

Originally Posted by logank013

I'm mostly talking about websites. Many websites are taking the main focus from his wrongful arresting to the fact he didn't invent the clock. Many sites are more concerned that he didn't invent the clock rather than the fact he got arrested. Sorry I wasn't very clear.

And that makes sense because this recent development has brought the whole movement under question. It undermines his motives and make people suspicious. I was originally deeply appealed with what happened to him but after recent developments...

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by wireties

There is every need to qualify that. You guys are throwing a teacher under the bus, accusing him/her of being racist when he/she may be just following zero tolerance procedures in order to keep his/her job. The same goes for the school administration - they passed the buck up to the police. Why is it so hard for you to imagine that this is mostly just ridiculous bureaucracy?

Because, like I have been saying, I do NOT believe that Zero Tolerance covers "anything that looks electronic" or some similar wording. The teacher HAD to think something was suspicious about the device. They had to suspect him of malicious intent IF (and only if) ZT policy doesn't cover "electronic 7-seg displays" or the like. No bit of Zero Tolerance documentation I have found supports that. I would honestly love for you to prove me wrong.

I have never said simply "the police questioned him too long". You added "simply" for effect.

I think you misread what I said. I was describing your wording as simple, not saying you used the word "simple".


I think it is important to note that accusing this teacher and administrator of racism in no way accuses other Texans or other adults at the school of racism. I think this goes without saying.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by teku14

I'll address many of the responses I've seen here.
1. He said so himself during many recorded interviews that it was his invention. (I'm surprised our FIRST community Memebers hasn't been able to identify that he hadn't made the clock from the photo)
2. He literally opened up a clock case and spilled its innards out onto box. That's fine also I guess sure we'll applaud that as curiosity or whatever
3. If that is the case then should we encourage students the way we are Ahmed? Does every 10-14 year old (who I've seen many do remarkable things) get huge scholarship funds, internship opportunities, and a White House visit?
4. I certainly hope you didn't have the initiative to plaguerize at his age because that's exactly what he's done.

I think you are missing the point of this issue. If a 14 year old student uses the word "invented" to describe something that they put together from a kit, or parts, or even put working parts into a new enclosure, that isn't a big deal. I have tons of students on my FIRST team that use the wrong words to describe their work (especially freshman like Ahmed). We correct them and we move on.

You should also look into how plagiarism because simply using the word "invent" does not qualify. Arguing about the use of the English language by a freshman seriously detracts from the real issues here.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Because, like I have been saying, I do NOT believe that Zero Tolerance covers "anything that looks electronic" or some similar wording. The teacher HAD to think something was suspicious about the device. They had to suspect him of malicious intent IF (and only if) ZT policy doesn't cover "electronic 7-seg displays" or the like. No bit of Zero Tolerance documentation I have found supports that. I would honestly love for you to prove me wrong.

Zero tolerance includes everything defined as a crime. In Texas it does not matter what Ahmed claimed (and you and I agree 100%, it was a clock!), the device need only "cause concern to an authority figure". All the teacher or administrator need have is a sliver of doubt about what or why and they pass the buck (up) in a CYA exercise, classic bureaucratic behavior. Note that the police did eventually decide Ahmed had no nefarious intent, that he was "harmless". Finding out why they did not release him at school will be interesting - I do not understand why we was detained.

Originally Posted by Monochron

I think it is important to note that accusing this teacher and administrator of racism in no way accuses other Texans or other adults at the school of racism. I think this goes without saying.

So without any facts you are accusing the teacher and administrator of racism? You say it goes without saying but that is not the tone in the media.

[teku14]

Originally Posted by Monochron

I think you are missing the point of this issue. If a 14 year old student uses the word "invented" to describe something that they put together from a kit, or parts, or even put working parts into a new enclosure, that isn't a big deal. I have tons of students on my FIRST team that use the wrong words to describe their work (especially freshman like Ahmed). We correct them and we move on.

You should also look into how plagiarism because simply using the word "invent" does not qualify. Arguing about the use of the English language by a freshman seriously detracts from the real issues here.

I understand that however nobody is addressing this head on for what it really is. Heck even the title of this thread. We all want to give him lip service and pitty; more than what he deserves. If we leave this at simply "he was a victim of stereotype", I couldn't agree any more. But going this far and giving him all this underserved credit and attention absolutely ridiculous. Sure a mild gesture to let him know that his curiosity and passion is appreciated but this? How can you justify all this lip service and attention?

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by wireties

Zero tolerance includes everything defined as a crime. In Texas it does not matter what Ahmed claimed (and you and I agree 100%, it was a clock!), the device need only "cause concern to an authority figure". All the teacher or administrator need have is a sliver of doubt about what or why and they pass the buck (up) in a CYA exercise, classic bureaucratic behavior.

As I see it, there is the issue. The teacher is only required to report the clock if it caused him/her concern. AND the teacher knew that reporting it would involve the police and put Ahmed into their custody (I say this because teachers are given training in Zero Tolerance policy procedures in my area and must be intimately familiar with what to do in these situations). Ahmed's electronics project did cause the teacher concern and he/she made the call to involve the police via reporting.

From what I have read, Ahmed was forthcoming with the fact that it was a clock from the beginning. The teacher didn't believe him and was concerned by his project. The teacher distrusted Ahmed's word, and it is hard to see why the teacher would think that escalation, and thus involving the policy, was the right call to make.

So without any facts you are accusing the teacher and administrator of racism? You say it goes without saying but that is not the tone in the media.

We have been discussing why it could be racism for a couple pages now, there is no need to say I have no facts. We are both presenting our deductions.
And luckily, CD is not the media, and this discussion is not about calling Texan's or other school officials racist. If that is the discussion you want, you should start another thread.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by teku14

If we leave this at simply "he was a victim of stereotype", I couldn't agree any more. But going this far and giving him all this underserved credit and attention absolutely ridiculous. Sure a mild gesture to let him know that his curiosity and passion is appreciated but this? How can you justify all this lip service and attention?

No on is suggesting that he has "earned" all the attention and gifts. Sometimes big gestures which garner large media coverage are useful for making large social change. I'm not qualified to determine what he has "earned", but I'm very glad that this story is big enough that so many people are talking about it. And all the gifts he has received act as a tangible gesture that important people/companies value this kind of spirit in young people.

It publicly changes the story from "Administrators victimize young STEM enthusiast" to "The President, Microsoft, etc. value victimized young STEM enthusiasts".

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by teku14

I'll address many of the responses I've seen here.
1. He said so himself during many recorded interviews that it was his invention.

So what?

Originally Posted by teku14

(I'm surprised our FIRST community Memebers hasn't been able to identify that he hadn't made the clock from the photo)

Why should we even be trying to?

Originally Posted by teku14

2. He literally opened up a clock case and spilled its innards out onto box.

So what?

Originally Posted by teku14

That's fine also I guess sure we'll applaud that as curiosity or whatever

Yes, we should applaud this type of behavior.

Originally Posted by teku14

3. If that is the case then should we encourage students the way we are Ahmed?

Yes.

Originally Posted by teku14

Does every 10-14 year old (who I've seen many do remarkable things) get huge scholarship funds, internship opportunities, and a White House visit?

Obviously not. But Ahmed is not just every 10-14 year old who's done a remarkable thing.
When an incident becomes a matter of public interest, then examples need to be set. Important examples about racial tolerance and encouraging STEM.

Originally Posted by teku14

4. I certainly hope you didn't have the initiative to plaguerize at his age because that's exactly what he's done.

Nothing he did constitutes plagiarism.

Originally Posted by teku14

And that makes sense because this recent development has brought the whole movement under question. It undermines his motives and make people suspicious. I was originally deeply appealed with what happened to him but after recent developments...

No, it doesn't. There are no "recent developments" that change anything here. Whether or not he "invented" the clock or not is irrelevant. It's a pedantic argument that has nothing to do with the larger themes of the cultural prejudices in play here (both racially and intellectually motivated).

[logank013]

Originally Posted by teku14

I understand that however nobody is addressing this head on for what it really is. Heck even the title of this thread. We all want to give him lip service and pitty; more than what he deserves. If we leave this at simply "he was a victim of stereotype", I couldn't agree any more. But going this far and giving him all this underserved credit and attention absolutely ridiculous. Sure a mild gesture to let him know that his curiosity and passion is appreciated but this? How can you justify all this lip service and attention?

I feel like the biggest thing about the lip service by the people of CD is because of the bad lip service of the media. I feel like the people of the media have taken it too far calling this kid pathetic for calling his rework an invention. I feel like so of the users of CD (including my self) have take it too far giving this kid credit for exploring technology. This case shouldn't even be in the media and it wouldn't be if he never got cuffed. The initial reason for this story was that he was cuffed before being released but as usual, the public and the media have taken this case on multiple other tangents like the one we're talking about now.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

So what?


... It's a pedantic argument that has nothing to do with the larger themes of the cultural prejudices in play here (both racially and intellectually motivated).

First let say I think the school way overreacted. Nothing i have seen in the media says Ahmed tried to pass off his clock as anything more than a clock. I will even concede that cultural bias or prejudices probably played a part, maybe a large part in the school's actions. But to make a blanket assumption that was their primary reason for their actions without knowing the whole story (and the school cannot explain their side because of privacy issues) is to be guilty of the same prejudices as the school is being accused of.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

First let say I think the school way overreacted. Nothing i have seen in the media says Ahmed tried to pass off his clock as anything more than a clock. I will even concede that cultural bias or prejudices probably played a part, maybe a large part in the school's actions. But to make a blanket assumption that was their primary reason for their actions without knowing the whole story (and the school cannot explain their side because of privacy issues) is to be guilty of the same prejudices as the school is being accused of.

To whitewash away injustices because of a lack of definitive proof only enables them to perpetuate. You would have a point in a legal setting, but this is a larger cultural setting. This isn't about condemning the school so much as holding up Ahmed as a counterpoint against the cultural prejudices. Whether or not they were the exclusive reasons that led to his detainment by the authorities is a secondary matter. The circumstances has presented an opportunity for Ahmed to be an example to encourage STEM and dismantle racial prejudices.

More to my original point of the post you quoted, fact checking whether or not his clock was an "invention" or not is entirely off point. That doesn't matter here. Encouraging curiosity, intellectualism, and STEM experimentation as cultural values is what's important. Dismantling racial prejudices is what's important. Whether or not he printed his own PCB is not important. Trying to catch him in his word choice of "invention" and fact check the clock he brought is a petty argument that has little to do with the actual issues. This tweet in response to Richard Dawkin's line of inquiry about the origin of the clock captures it well.