Can someone in the Irving TX area "draft" this young man?

[teku14]

Originally Posted by Madison

Sean's points are valid and he's trying to foster a meaningful discussion about something that's FAR more important than whether this particular person meets your bizarre standards for integrity, etc.

Sean wants to talk about institutional racism and anti-intellectualism. You want to whine about a single individual. While they are subjects that certainly can be addressed separately as you've suggested, your piece of this discussion -- going after a kid -- is a worthless waste of your time and ours.

I'm sorry that you feel that way about what I have to say. However, just because you say so (with disrespectfully strong language), does not make this any less important. While I agree that about the priority of institutional racism and anti-intellectualism over what my 2 cents were to this, I truly have no other motive here than to add another dimension to this topic. I'm not out defame this kid, drag his reputation through the mud or any of the other strong metaphors that people are accusing me of. In fact, most of what I've said here is an opinion of mine that Sean has such a strong desire scrutinize. The only kid that you, or anyone else in this conversation is after is me and my opinion. So if you truly want to stop wasting my time and yours how about you actually start talking about this larger issue instead of having away at me, lip service toward Ahmed, and my opinion of Ahmed as a person

[Bob Steele]

Does anyone really know whether "insert generic white Christian name here" would have been treated differently in this case? Was it the device or social injustice? Is it the media that jumped to a conclusion? These are tough questions to figure out.

I think that someone should have looked at the device/clock that this young man had and figured out it was not a bomb. Unfortunately, there are few individuals that would be able to do that. I know that after the fact it is easy to see that this was not a bomb.

If YOU were the teacher or staff member and you saw something like this how would YOU have reacted? Remember that if it had been an explosive device and it went off how would you have felt then?

I know many teachers who would have reacted the same way. Students bring in all sorts of things that aren't part of their classes. Including weapons, toys, and things I can't really talk about here. They don't belong at school. I have worked at schools (not my present one) where i have had to disarm individuals. I did not do that based on what they looked like. I did it based on the weapon.

Now Ahmed didn't have a weapon... but do we err on the side of caution when the circumstances dictate that? I have seen students with squirt guns (that looked amazing like real guns) cuffed and led away at school. How does one know?

Ahmed bears a little of this responsibility by just deciding to "make" this clock/device and bring it to school. While I applaud any attempt at deciphering the technological world around us and I love his curiosity about NASA and science, in retrospect he should have asked permission to bring it in and made sure everyone at school knew it was coming in order to not elicit the type of response that he got.

I am not knowledgeable enough about Ahmed or his family or the school or anything else to comment on his motives for doing this so I won't.


I believe it was the "device" that caused the reaction and not the color of Ahmed's skin or his name or religion.

People, in general, are afraid of technology because they don't understand it. They are encumbered by media reports of strange technological devices because for the most part, the media does not understand it either. Fictional programs have prop devices that are shown on screen giving the viewer a "taste" of what a real device looks like.

I know that this has probably happened at many schools all over the world.
A student brings something in to school.... it looks strange.... it is necessary to think the worst and act accordingly until it is proven safe. This is a totally necessary response to protect our students.

I am sorry for any student that gets caught up with something like this but it needs to be a learning experience. When the truth comes out, we move on.

move on... invite Ahmed to a team... give him a good place to exercise his curiosity and passion for technology....

move along... this is not the droid you are looking for....

[teku14]

Originally Posted by Jacob Bendicksen

I can't speak for Sean, but I'd rather support someone I'd never met than put them down. I'd like to think that people are good unless proven otherwise.

I'm sorry... I was of the same opinion as well but after these reports. And I'm not trying to put him down. I have a different view. Maybe it's just me (as is evident by most other responses) that I become this skeptical when evidence of dishonesty surfaces.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by teku14

I'm sorry that you feel that way about what I have to say. However, just because you say so (with disrespectfully strong language), does not make this any less important. While I agree that about the priority of institutional racism and anti-intellectualism over what my 2 cents were to this, I truly have no other motive here than to add another dimension to this topic. I'm not out defame this kid, drag his reputation through the mud or any of the other strong metaphors that people are accusing me of. In fact, most of what I've said here is an opinion of mine that Sean has such a strong desire scrutinize. The only kid that you, or anyone else in this conversation is after is me and my opinion. So if you truly want to stop wasting my time and yours how about you actually start talking about this larger issue instead of having away at me, lip service toward Ahmed, and my opinion of Ahmed as a person

Seeing as you have never met nor interacted with Ahmed, your opinion of him carries no weight. Your directly stated your objective as to "cast doubt on his persona," and your actions in this thread have backed that up. That's defaming someone. That's dragging someone through the mud. Most importantly, that's contributing to the type of anti-intellectualism that led to this issue. Instead of celebrating youth that are interested in science and technology, you are lashing out at Ahmed.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by teku14

I truly have no other motive here than to add another dimension to this topic.

If that is really all you want to do, then you are done. You gave your opinion that him claiming to have "invented" it instead of having "assembled" (or whatever) it means that we should think less of him than the media wants. No one has agreed with you so far. That will happen in life, but there is nothing more to discuss.

The only kid that you, or anyone else in this conversation is after is me and my opinion.

I'll respond to this part because I think this is an important part of the conversation for everyone to understand.
YES, we are after you and your opinion. We are doing so because we find you opinion to be poorly based, unjust, and simply bad. I'm not particularly fond of the "you must respect everone's opinion" because I believe (and I would wager that Sean and Madison agree) that your opinion is a poisonous one. For the reasons presented in our discussion already, I recommend that you take some time, reconsider, and think about dropping that opinion.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Madison

Sean's points are valid and he's trying to foster a meaningful discussion about something that's FAR more important than whether this particular person meets your bizarre standards for integrity, etc.

Sean wants to talk about institutional racism and anti-intellectualism. You want to whine about a single individual. While they are subjects that certainly can be addressed separately as you've suggested, your piece of this discussion -- going after a kid -- is a worthless waste of your time and ours.

The big assumption here is what happened to Ahmed is based on institutional racism. It might well be but nobody has presented any proof. Schools over react & over discipline frequently for reasons other than institutional racism. Ahmed jokingly telling a friend he was going to blow up the school moves the school's reaction to just overreaching. This is hypothetical; no disrespect to Ahmed is intended.

If the response is just to prove we are not all racist then it is a little silly. (not directed at Sean or you) If it is to have a meaningful discussion on how to overcome remaining vestiges of discrimination great. Either way it seems that Ahmed is becoming a symbol & the actual facts are unimportant. "When the legend becomes the fact, print the legend" Maxwell Scott

[teku14]

Originally Posted by Monochron

If that is really all you want to do, then you are done. You gave your opinion that him claiming to have "invented" it instead of having "assembled" (or whatever) it means that we should think less of him than the media wants. No one has agreed with you so far. That will happen in life, but there is nothing more to discuss.


I'll respond to this part because I think this is an important part of the conversation for everyone to understand.
YES, we are after you and your opinion. We are doing so because we find you opinion to be poorly based, unjust, and simply bad. I'm not particularly fond of the "you must respect everone's opinion" because I believe (and I would wager that Sean and Madison agree) that your opinion is a poisonous one. For the reasons presented in our discussion already, I recommend that you take some time, reconsider, and think about dropping that opinion.

Thank you for that summation. I wished that I could have been done with this a while ago but yes that is my opinion and if that's the consensus of the majority (very apparent that it is) for me to stop arguing this opinion then I will do so. I was only being defensive to that opinion.

While I disagree with you on this opinion being any of the 3 you listed above and believe it is very important to the discussion, I recognize the desire by everyone else to not have this kind of opinion present. I've thought about this many times but I stand firm by my opinion.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

The big assumption here is what happened to Ahmed is based on institutional racism. It might well be but nobody has presented any proof. Schools over react & over discipline frequently for reasons other than institutional racism. Ahmed jokingly telling a friend he was going to blow up the school moves the school's reaction to just overreaching. This is hypothetical; no disrespect to Ahmed is intended.

If the response is just to prove we are not all racist then it is a little silly. (not directed at Sean or you) If it is to have a meaningful discussion on how to overcome remaining vestiges of discrimination great. Either way it seems that Ahmed is becoming a symbol & the actual facts are unimportant. "When the legend becomes the fact, print the legend" Maxwell Scott

Exposing the effects of institutional racism can be very difficult. Even in the absence of definitive proof that those involved in this case were motivated by racism, the possibility itself offers an opportunity for us to discuss problems that need to be solved (and, I'd argue, are not mere vestiges of our checkered past).

In this case, I don't think you need proof of some overt action taken by the teacher, administration, or police; rather, the lack of similar incidents of this kind of perceived overreaction -- notably involving students who are not minorities -- seems to point toward Ahmed's race and religion playing some part in how he was treated.

[GKrotkov]

Originally Posted by Madison

Exposing the effects of institutional racism can be very difficult. Even in the absence of definitive proof that those involved in this case were motivated by racism, the possibility itself offers an opportunity for us to discuss problems that need to be solved (and, I'd argue, are not mere vestiges of our checkered past).

In this case, I don't think you need proof of some overt action taken by the teacher, administration, or police; rather, the lack of similar incidents of this kind of perceived overreaction -- notably involving students who are not minorities -- seems to point toward Ahmed's race and religion playing some part in how he was treated.

I'd like to point out that the Supreme Court of the United States agrees with this point:
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...s-project-inc/

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...-1371_m64o.pdf

For those of us who don't like wading through legal discussion, SCOTUS essentially said that proportional inequality is an acceptable demonstration of large-scale discrimination.


Edit:
...But, as Sean pointed out, this is a cultural, rather than a legal, discussion. Perhaps then take it with a grain of salt.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Madison

Exposing the effects of institutional racism can be very difficult. Even in the absence of definitive proof that those involved in this case were motivated by racism, the possibility itself offers an opportunity for us to discuss problems that need to be solved (and, I'd argue, are not mere vestiges of our checkered past).

In this case, I don't think you need proof of some overt action taken by the teacher, administration, or police; rather, the lack of similar incidents of this kind of perceived overreaction -- notably involving students who are not minorities -- seems to point toward Ahmed's race and religion playing some part in how he was treated.

I am all for discussing these problems with the desire for finding constructive solutions. I am happy that most of the mainstream national reaction was to defend Ahmed. If i was local to the school district, I would asking my elected officials for an explanation and the problem to be addressed.

Do we know the school's history of suspensions & referring youth to police? Without that you cannot claim proportional inequality is at play here. Nationally I can site examples of zero tolerance run amock without depending on institutional racism as a cause.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by teku14

While I disagree with you on this opinion being any of the 3 you listed above and believe it is very important to the discussion, I recognize the desire by everyone else to not have this kind of opinion present. I've thought about this many times but I stand firm by my opinion.

That's a mature way to deal with this disagreement. I'm glad we could agree to disagree.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

How is holding Ahmed up as an example impugning the character of anyone? What happened to Ahmed was wrong, and stating as much needs to happen.

What happened to Ahmed is wrong, wrong, wrong! 100% agreement! Blaming it solely (or partially) on racial injustice (as you earlier stated) is just as wrong (sans facts).

[Lil' Lavery]

If the school honestly feared it may be a bomb, they would have evacuated and called the bomb squad. That's what happens when you take a "zero tolerance" approach.

Originally Posted by wireties

What happened to Ahmed is wrong, wrong, wrong! 100% agreement! Blaming it solely (or partially) on racial injustice (as you earlier stated) is just as wrong (sans facts).

As an aside, I'll remind you this is the town that passed an "anti-Shariah law" back in March.

But in reality, you're missing the forest for the trees here. Whether or not the individuals involved were impacted by racial prejudices, Ahmed has become a symbol about fighting against institutional and cultural racism. A few minutes of searching comments sections about this incident yielded these. There are articles out there about the link between engineering and terrorism. There is little doubt that institutional racism exists in the United States (and some painful parallels with Ahmed being "detained" while not "arrested"). Given this, it's important to use this as an example for good. Ahmed has power as a symbol. Even Ahmed knows as much.
“It’s worth it, once you realize what you’re fighting for,” he said.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As an aside, I'll remind you this is the town that passed an "anti-Shariah law" back in March.

And? Is this yet another veiled accusation/inference? So who is on your "racial injustice perpetrator list"? Teacher, school, district, town, Texas?

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

But in reality, you're missing the forest for the trees here.

This is the USA. Metaphorical trees matter.

I'm all for using Ahmed as an example or a cause if and when the facts are in. And they most certainly are not.

[Lil' Lavery]

Ahmed was wrongly detained.
Ahmed is a student interested in engineering.
Ahmed is of a race that suffers institutional and cultural prejudices against it.

Those are the facts that matter. That's enough to justify the use of Ahmed as a symbol, and Ahmed accepts that.