"A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?

[Jared Russell]

I'd be wary to trust my academic and professional future in the hands of any college that does not recalculate GPA to normalize different scoring systems.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I'd be wary to trust my academic and professional future in the hands of any college that does not recalculate GPA to normalize different scoring systems.

+1

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

This was a huge concern when Citrus Circuits first put together a class that we offered, the overwhelming student voice was everyone that had AP classes would not take the class because it would lower their GPA. What we have done to partially resolve this is offer our robotics courses to our students as EITHER a A-F graded class or as a Pass/No Pass course. Our students that are AP takers can take it as Pass/No Pass and not have their GPA adversely affected while still getting elective credit. Our students that do not take AP can then still freely take it as a graded course to bring up their GPA.

The underlying issues surrounding AP/Honors courses is not an issue I am qualified to discuss, but I feel that our solution is not a bad one based on the system we have to work with.

I'll echo that this has been a great solution for the students on our team. Sanddrag, if this is an option for your program, I would look into it. As Devin said, it allows a wide variety of students to take the class and benefit, no matter what "academic track" they are on.

If you want more info, PM me and I can put you in touch with our Lead Mentor who established our courses at the high school.

-Mike

[Jon Stratis]

Honestly, I don't think there's much reason to worry about robotics bringing your GPA down closer to 4.0. If you're that concerned that "optional classes" you didn't have to take for graduation lowered your GPA and might affect your ability to get in somewhere, then you have ample opportunity to talk about! Make it a focus of one of your admissions essays (write about how the robotics classes impacted you, and end with a tag line "even though it lowered my GPA, it was well worth it"). When you visit the college and interview with someone there, bring it up in the interview - "i was wondering how my GPA compares to your typical applicant", and as that conversation progresses, "i knew it was going to lower my GPA, but I felt that taking this robotics course would help me because...".

Personally, I never found GPA to be much of an issue when applying to colleges, and I applied to some rather tough ones. The tough ones are all going to look at much more than just GPA, as others have said... And Schools that don't look past the provided GPA probably aren't going to be difficult for someone with a 4.0+ to get into!

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

Don't worry too much about this. GPA is recalculated by the college.

In the eyes of Michigan, my sparkling 4.14 was only worth a 3.97. Get the A, carry on.

Yep, Michigan definitely does recalculate GPAs (my unweighed was not quite a 3.97, but I still got in ). They also constantly stress that they consider course load, the schools where the classes were taken, etc. rather than strictly looking at GPA on its own. I'd guesstimate that doing robotics probably would outweigh the difference in GPA, if it's a deciding factor for some students. Pass/Fail seems like a reasonable compromise, although if I'm a college, I'm wondering why the student took that class Pass/Fail rather than for a grade (and I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with "so their GPA would be higher").

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by LCJ

As a current high school senior and an active member of Team 2468, I cannot express my frustration enough about exactly the issue being covered in this thread.
My school is a very competitive high school where being in the top 10% of the school means taking as many AP classes (that means 5-7 per semester) and getting consistent 95+ grades.
As a student who is actively engaged in Band (which is unweighted), Robotics (also unweighted), and taking foreign language classes (first two years unweighted), I am always at constant stress of trying to juggle my time effectively between the ridiculous amount of homework from the AP classes, marching band practices, and robotics meetings to where I was forced into quitting band for my senior year to make sure that I was able to continue being an active member and a leader in the robotics program.
Spending hours on homework after getting home late from a robotics meeting and then waking up at 5:30 for a band practice has yielded me a class ranking that is barely in the top 10% of the class and I cannot express my disgust with this system enough. I pursued my interests through the activities I engaged myself in (which were time consuming and taught me useful life skills) and the result is a punishment for not taking the "easy-APs" that other take to ensure a higher rank for themselves.
I think a clear solution lies in allowing multipliers for only core-classes (English, Math, etc.) and not for elective courses, but having a higher minimum number of credits necessary to graduate, thereby ensuring that all students are only allowed to take a certain number of grade-enhancing classes and evening the playing field a little more, while decreasing the gap created by students who do not taking as many classes overall to benefit their GPA.

Sorry about the rant, but this issue has been a major source of stress for me in the last several years of my life and I really hope future students don't have to go through the same issue I had throughout my high school years.

Wish me luck as I begin applying to colleges! Maybe they'll value my time spent at robotics and band!

+1, Same scenario at our high school.

[Lil' Lavery]

Colleges recalculate your GPA based on their own standards. The only area I could see this hurting is in class rankings.


Honestly, the bigger issue here is how this emphasizes our cultural demand for perfectionism. It isn't healthy.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Honestly, the bigger issue here is how this emphasizes our cultural demand for perfectionism. It isn't healthy.

Absolutely agree. If I learned one thing in FRC as a student it was that you take a lot more out of your failures than you do your successes. By promoting a culture of taking an easier route to success, we aren't advocating for real learning.

This isn't a problem that anyone on Chief Delphi is disagreeing with. It's about the culture outside of us that we need to continue changing.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

Same here. In my graduating class, I was #6 (after the five valedictorians) having taken AP Chem, AP Calc AB, and AP English (don't remember which one), with one quarter of AP English being the reason I was #6. It was never a problem that you didn't earn a bonus to the GPA.

One possible advantage is that many students will dual enroll at the university, so instead of taking lots of honors classes, many just start on college classes senior year. So I got out of high school with just shy of a 4.0, 20 direct college credits and another 14 credits from AP. And I was never interested in the top-tier schools.

PS. Robotics isn't a class here.

Same. I graduated in 98 with a 3.7. Messed around my freshman year then straight A's the last three years and took every AP class offered, but there was no grade inflation. An A was 4 points no matter what.

I think kids worry too much about a perfect GPA. Good colleges are going to look at that and figure it out for themselves. If you're applying to a college that only looks at the GPA and not what constituted it, then you're applying to the wrong college. Every 'good' college I applied to ended up interviewing me. They never once asked about my GPA - they asked what practical experience I had. My out-of-school programming job, home economics course, cad-cam course, band, tennis, robotics, sailing, and community service etc constituted the entirety of the conversation. In fact, I made a joke about the fact that I belonged to three 'honors societies' that I wanted nothing to do with because they didn't add to me as a person (NHS, Golden Key, and Beta Club). I thought they were pointless, and a couple of my interviewers agreed =).

In the end, even the college that I went to really didn't make a difference. The co-op I had DURING college got me my first out-of-college job. And when you ask all the professionals you work with where they went to school you'll hear a lot of school names you won't recognize. Yet they have great jobs too.

If you are smart and work hard, don't sweat it.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Colleges recalculate your GPA based on their own standards. The only area I could see this hurting is in class rankings.


Honestly, the bigger issue here is how this emphasizes our cultural demand for perfectionism. It isn't healthy.

It is unhealthy, but if you want to keep up sometimes it's necessary for those who are aiming for the highest tier of schools. Taking classes like robotics at our school can potentially put you out of the running for the top 10 altogether, and even lower if you've ever gotten a B.

I wish GPA/class rank didn't have such a big emphasis, but that's the game high schoolers are being forced to play.

And I realize that there's more to life than GPA and class rank and what college you go to. I'm just saying that at some point, every applicant to some schools (i.e Ivy League) begins to have several valuable extracurriculars and very good test scores, with remarkable stories int heir essays. Naturally, students shooting for these colleges will be looking to squeeze out every advantage they can for their applications, one being their GPA and class rank.

[Cory]

This seems like looking for a solution to a problem that isn't a problem.

If you took nothing but AP classes your soph through senior years, your GPA would be like 4.6 without robotics and 4.5 with robotics.

I highly, highly doubt this actually harms you with a potential future college.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by Cory

This seems like looking for a solution to a problem that isn't a problem.

If you took nothing but AP classes your soph through senior years, your GPA would be like 4.6 without robotics and 4.5 with robotics.

I highly, highly doubt this actually harms you with a potential future college.

In my high school, you need at least a 4.3 GPA to be top 10%, which is where you need to be for automatic admission to most state schools in Texas. If you are applying to UT, your GPA needs to be greater because their auto admit cutoff is around 7%.

Needless to say, auto admit makes Texas high school students very serious about GPA. The valedictorian of my class sits at around a 4.8 GPA. Sure you take all APs and make your grade, but for many students that is difficult to do with robotics, and would rather focus on their guaranteed college acceptance rather than a really awesome extracurricular activity.

[HelloRobot]

I think GPA is important, but not most important, to the holistic review of colleges. Most look at all that you've done, and also admissions officers often look at your record in the context of your school. (For example, not all schools offer as many AP classes as others) Also, recommendations and interviews are increasingly popular, and these can showcase your abilities outside of class. If you're spending so much time in robotics, maybe your teacher would be a great person to ask for a recommendation! My school has a "brag sheet" for us to fill out before a counselor writes a rec, and one of the questions is "Is your high school academic record an accurate measure of your ability and potential? If not, what do you consider the best measure of your potential?" I don't know exactly how my counselor will reflect on that (if she does at all), but something like that may be a good thing to put in your applications if there is a spot (i.e. the Common App's personal statement box) And yes, some schools calculate GPA differently, such as the University of Tennessee, who unweights them and recalculates only certain ones (and if you've taken more than what is required, they may only look at your highest in that subject. For example, I've taken 4 art classes total, but UT would only look at my highest unweighted score.)

But yes, I do agree that GPA stacking is a problem. Not only does it sometimes unfairly inflate GPA, it also takes away from other experiences you could have in high school. I am an excellent student in AP and honors academic classes, but I have also taken leadership, theater, photography, speech, wildlife, and leadership. Are those going to make me appear a weaker student because I did not take certain AP's? No - if anything, they will show that I am well-rounded. Plus, I'm not interested in all the AP's my school offers, nor do I want to sacrifice parts of my schedule to take them.

Now, back to robotics. I can say that I would not be in robotics for my 4th year now if I had had to give up some of my classes (on my school's block scheduling, that's a whole semester if I took it once a year!). But I have an idea for you. See if you can create some kind of robotics-related project outside the competition. Maybe you can do research, or solve a problem through designing something. Make this opportunity available for students who have done robotics for at least two years (or one so that it can add to GPA sooner) and make it so that their participation in that can count as honors credit. This could be done in the offseason so that it would not interfere with the REAL March Madness. (Source of the idea: My school has a STEM Scholars program where about 20 juniors and seniors are in groups researching something. We haven't started our research yet, but upon completion, we will get an extra certificate at graduation, and we can put this on our resumes. All this is out of class, although some get permission to reserve a class period to focus on that instead of taking a class.)

Hope this helps!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Such an intense focus on the "grade" and getting in to college. Roll it forward 4 or 5 or 6 years and you get this problem.
http://www.macleans.ca/education/uni...pr=12707004769

Robotics and the First program are great at helping with the above problem.

Students. Companies hire stem trained people to solve problems in the "real world" not a virtual text book world. Devote some of your time to jobs - internships and gain experience solving problems in a real job setting.

As well as some of the collegiate engineering competitions. See "robotics with your classes applied to the challenge first". I went to a college with a very strong "hands-on" component. 2 projects sophomore year... 1+ junior year... senior design... and I was on one of the engineering competition teams. That team led to one of the quickest "knowledge turnarounds" I've ever done--calculating how much drag force a turnbuckle would likely generate (and thus, the odds of needing more power than available) right after I'd learned drag. Had to ask the prof what the best strategy was for doing drag on odd shapes...

[smurfgirl]

I would not worry about this. Most universities are looking at the full picture of who the applicants are as people, what makes them tick, what they might contribute to the campus, and whether they would be able to thrive at the school. It is not just a question of who has the highest combination of GPA and SAT/ACT score, and schools do recognize how different weighting systems can effect weighted GPAs.

I would focus your energy on taking classes that interest and challenge you at a level that is manageable to you. Make the most of the opportunities and resources you have available to you.

If you are interested in going into the STEM fields, having hands-on experience like robotics will reflect well on you when you apply to college, scholarships, internships, and careers. Don't worry about it's effect on your weighted GPA.