"A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

I would not worry about this. Most universities are looking at the full picture of who the applicants are as people, what makes them tick, what they might contribute to the campus, and whether they would be able to thrive at the school. It is not just a question of who has the highest combination of GPA and SAT/ACT score, and schools do recognize how different weighting systems can effect weighted GPAs.

I would focus your energy on taking classes that interest and challenge you at a level that is manageable to you. Make the most of the opportunities and resources you have available to you.

If you are interested in going into the STEM fields, having hands-on experience like robotics will reflect well on you when you apply to college, scholarships, internships, and careers. Don't worry about it's effect on your weighted GPA.

I want to believe this, but I find it difficult to do so. There isn't much that I remember from college applications that would allow colleges to collect that information to get to know a student beyond their grades. The essay is just about it, which is painfully short and usually highly edited by English teachers. The only other thing is you can list clubs and sports, but I know plenty of kids who put down clubs on their applications that they only were a part of for one meeting.

[Paul Copioli]

For those of you not familiar with the way Texas Colleges work, there is an automatic admission for the top 10% (in most cases) of your class.

I have a high school sophomore in a very competitive high school. They weight pre-AP, AP, and IB classes so even though he has over a 4.0 average he is not within the top 10% due to a faction of students I call the GPA grubbers.

We had a lengthy conversation about it that ended like this:

Me: Do you even want to go to a Texas School?

Him: No.

Me: Well, then focus on the classes you like, take enough AP classes so you can still be on the varsity swim team and test out of a bunch of credits in college.

Him: OK, but what if I don't get into the best school?

Me: Don't worry about it. You have over 20 schools on your list of desirable schools so you will be fine.

Him: OK, sounds good.


His stress level has gone down significantly since that conversation.

Now, for you other Texas students that want to go to a Texas University ... I don't really have much advice for you other than to work hard and learn as much as you can, because that is really what matters in your education if you want to actually be productive in your career.

Paul

[Michael Corsetto]

The question isn't: "Does GPA matter in college applications?" EDIT: I guess it kind of is. The answer seems to be a resounding "Very Systematic." Especially considering Paul's above example of the Texas admission system.

The question is: "How does a robotics class that currently lowers a weighted GPA of a >4.0 weighted GPA student attract and retain said student?"

Here are some options I see:

Option 1: Convince said student that the slight difference in weighted GPA won't matter. (as some have claimed on this thread)

Option 2: Give an option for taking the class pass/no pass, so it doesn't effect their GPA.

Option 3: Provide an AP/Honors Robotics class that will provide a 5.0 weighted with an "A"

Option 4: Don't enroll said students in the class but allow participation on the team.

We went with Option 2/Option 4.

Option 1 is probably a hard sell for high achieving kids. We have many students from our school district going to top colleges, and I doubt these students would buy the argument in Option 1. But we still want these kids on the team, so rather than try to convince every high-achieving student to register for something they don't want, we went with different options

Is Option 3 even possible in California? The closest I can think of is AP Computer Science.

Let us know if you end up making any changes to your program to address these challenges! I've always admired the way you run 696, even if its pretty different from the way we've done things up here!

-Mike

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

I want to believe this, but I find it difficult to do so. There isn't much that I remember from college applications that would allow colleges to collect that information to get to know a student beyond their grades. The essay is just about it, which is painfully short and usually highly edited by English teachers. The only other thing is you can list clubs and sports, but I know plenty of kids who put down clubs on their applications that they only were a part of for one meeting.

Admissions offices consider what students say about themselves (their essays), what their teachers say about them (their recommendations), and what others say about them (their interviewers). They also look at how these narratives fit together and any commonalities or differences between them, and they use this to develop an understanding of who the student is as a person.

Not every school does it exactly the same way, but I believe this is the general idea for many schools. It is relatively easy to see through students who try to "pad" their resumes, and a lot more goes into the decisions than just raw numbers. I am speaking from experience both as an alumni interviewer for my school and a scholarship judge for a number of organizations.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

Admissions offices consider what students say about themselves (their essays), what their teachers say about them (their recommendations), and what others say about them (their interviewers). They also look at how these narratives fit together and any commonalities or differences between them, and they use this to develop an understanding of who the student is as a person.

Not every school does it exactly the same way, but I believe this is the general idea for many schools. It is relatively easy to see through students who try to "pad" their resumes, and a lot more goes into the decisions than just raw numbers. I am speaking from experience both as an alumni interviewer for my school and a scholarship judge for a number of organizations.

I forgot about teacher reccomendations. That actually does make a big difference in my mind, between the kids looking to learn and the kids looking for a grade.

[josesantos]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Option 3: Provide an AP/Honors Robotics class that will provide a 5.0 weighted with an "A"

Is Option 3 even possible in California? The closest I can think of is AP Computer Science.

I'm not up-to-date with how 687 currently handles this, but I can share how it worked when I was in high school.

Our FRC class was not weighted, but students could concurrently enroll in an FRC-oriented Physics class at Cal State University Dominguez Hills (where the CAMS campus is located) taught by one of our mentors. We did the same thing with El Camino College for our other engineering classes.

Over the summer, 687 students also often take machining classes at El Camino.

[safiq10]

Being from a Texas High School and in the top 10% of my class I feel that I have an understanding for the students striving in this position. Being in ranked 2nd in your class is good but being ranked 2nd because I chose to opt out for Robotics over AP Psych hurts a little bit.

While I would greatly appreciate an AP robotics class I think the College Board would be better off with an AP Engineering class that encompasses many aspects of engineering. If I were making the AP class I would build it to be similar to AP 2D/3D Art. Students would submit an original work in CAD/Pictures/ETC and have to explain the engineering concepts behind the design, in addition their would be a written exam where students are tested on the basics of engineering.

This way students would be able to showcase a part of the robot that they may have designed and get to learn more about Engineering through the math/physics realms.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by safiq10

If I were making the AP class I would build it to be similar to AP 2D/3D Art. Students would submit an original work in CAD/Pictures/ETC and have to explain the engineering concepts behind the design, in addition their would be a written exam where students are tested on the basics of engineering.

This way students would be able to showcase a part of the robot that they may have designed and get to learn more about Engineering through the math/physics realms.

A PDR/CDR type of work? And a (much) lighter version of the FE Exam?

Folks, I think we've got a winner here. Real question is going to be convincing the Powers That Be that such a plan is feasible. (It also works for non-robotics students, too, as they can pick some other problem to solve.)



For those that don't understand the acronyms:
--PDR is Preliminary Design Review. "This is the problem I am trying to solve, here are some concepts that I came up with, this is the concept that I am proceeding with because X, Y, and Z factors favor it." Usually done to get approval for detailed design.
--CDR is Critical Design Review. "This is the problem, this is my solution, here's a bunch of math and cool stress pictures to back up my thinking." Usually done to get approval to build a prototype (or final product).
--FE Exam is the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam. 8 hours of test, 4 hours on general concepts and 4 hours on major specific ones, give or take a bit. For an AP type of class, though, you'd probably stick to really basic general concepts spread around any engineering discipline not already covered by an AP test.

[bam-bam]

Out of curiosity, are there any movements in the FRC-hub and outside of the hub about these "AP Engineering" classes in making engineering a part of the national curriculum?

I am not asking about PLTW (as wonderful as it is), but more in the context of this discussion of classes hurting GPA.

[BSV]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Now, for you other Texas students that want to go to a Texas University ... I don't really have much advice for you other than to work hard and learn as much as you can, because that is really what matters in your education if you want to actually be productive in your career.

This is good advice in general. There are a lot of good schools out there, and those who are willing to work hard are more likely to (a) figure out what career path is best for them and (b) be successful and happy in their career choice.

I am on the research faculty in the largest research division of a major research university, affiliated with a federal research lab that is an extremely cool place to work. I hire and work with a lot of college undergraduate students. I can tell you that we really don't care about their high school GPA once they are here. If they show the desire to learn, though, and have shown the ability to succeed in challenging courses in college, then this is the place for them. They get to work on research projects that give them a huge boost to start their professional career or (more frequently) getting into the grad school of their choice, and they get paid to do so.

The students who are really passionate seek us out, and almost always get a job. It's pretty easy to identify them. Wish we had more FIRST kids, here!

Anyway, my point is don't stress about the short term stuff. Take the long term view an you will be a lot happier in both the short and long term.

(Disclaimer: I'm the father of kids who also stress about their GPAs, but not as much when they take the long view. Plus, here, ACT and PSAT scores seem to be far more important than grades).

[safiq10]

So with a quick google search I learned that AP engineering may be a class that is coming upon the horizon.

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I'd be wary to trust my academic and professional future in the hands of any college that does not recalculate GPA to normalize different scoring systems.

I've taken a concert band class all four years of my high school career, which, not being an AP/Honors class, factors in a full point lower on our schools weighted scale. The difference at the upper level of my school is pretty condemning, where being valedictorian is basically impossible and getting into the top 2% is extremely difficult (class size of a thousand ).

Full disclosure I'm going through the application process now, so I guess we'll see if I'm right, but I in no way have ever regretted taking band. It's become part of my life, and through it I can participate in activities like marching band, which in no doubt has helped bolster my resume for college.

I find it very hard to believe a college is going to penalize you for committing to something and following through with it, especially if it is something as positive as a robotics class. They're looking to see you doing well with a challenging work load - not to see the one class that lowers some school-determined number despite it actually improving you as a person.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

For those of you not familiar with the way Texas Colleges work, there is an automatic admission for the top 10% (in most cases) of your class.

I'm a little confused by why this is an excuse to not take robot class (or any other non-AP class). I understand the class rank circus, but it's missing out on automatic admission, not getting an automatic rejection. Applying for a school with good numbers/recommendations/essays/etc (even if your class rank is funky from GPA inflation) is going to result favorably.

[xman206]

It honestly depends on how well you manage your time.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

I'm a little confused by why this is an excuse to not take robot class (or any other non-AP class). I understand the class rank circus, but it's missing out on automatic admission, not getting an automatic rejection. Applying for a school with good numbers/recommendations/essays/etc (even if your class rank is funky from GPA inflation) is going to result favorably.

I think the argument is that a lot of students initially want to get involved in robotics because it would help them in the future and stand out to colleges. If they can get automatic acceptance though by not taking the class, then it doesn't make too much sense to a person not yet committed to the program. Especially if they only want to go to an in state school.