[FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies

[Chief Hedgehog]

I am all for the Trophy/Plaque combo. It offers the teams different set-up options in a very crowded pit. I know for 4607 it will be easier to find a wall space to place plaques and the bulky trophies can sit in our school's trophy case!

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

I like that they are looking back over old rules/traditions and seeing what still makes sense in the current FRC world.

This, absolutely this. There are wonderful traditions in FIRST that should stick around forever, and there are some things that need to be rethought as time goes on. The trophy setup is absolutely one of them, and hopefully we as a community can keep thinking of improvements to make FIRST more current, innovative, and able to reach as many people as efficiently as possible.

[mipo0707]

OMG imagine all the powerhouse teams who were like but we already built a trophy case for the new trophies or they were like phew now we don't have to build one.
But all in all i am all for this change plus cooler with 2 different "prizes" then 2 of the same plus sponsors will appreciate that they getting different(unique) trophy or plaque

[EricH]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I'm not sure of why pit setup needs more volunteers, but if that's a barrier to doing it, by all means let us know and we'll find the volunteers.

Currently, any given regional event can get by with 3-4 inspectors on hand for load-in--one cruises the pits, 2-3 check in teams outside/at the entrance, rotate out every now and again. Maybe a couple extra, one in each area, at bigger regionals (or if there's a special case like somebody shipped a robot, an inspector will be hanging out with or around that team while they uncrate). The job of whoever's in the pits is, currently, make sure that setup isn't happening and robot work isn't happening (and, to some extent, act as a walking quick-reference for schedule). When you add in multiple teams setting up (which tends to block views across the pits for some reason--even at L.A., it's pretty easy to see across the pits right after load-in if there isn't setup), it can get a little more interesting to observe and enforce, because now the inspectors actually have to enforce setup rules rather than just blocking setup. A couple of extra inspectors cruising the pits can help with keeping an eye on teams.


My proposal on the setup rules would be: no more than 5 persons (minimum one mentor) inside the venue at any one time per team; set up anything you like within your pit, including the battery chargers; any setup that is unsafe to perform with 5 or fewer persons for whatever reason (I can't think of any, but I'm sure there's something out there somewhere) will result in the team being told to wait on that; and teams that aren't out by some reasonable time after the doors close (5 minutes or so--gotta let the buzzer-beaters drop their gear off) suffer some minor penalty like having to finish in the morning after general opening (not during the morning load-in). Basically, use your noggin, get out on time, and don't crowd the pits.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by EricH

Currently, any given regional event can get by with 3-4 inspectors on hand for load-in--one cruises the pits, 2-3 check in teams outside/at the entrance, rotate out every now and again. Maybe a couple extra, one in each area, at bigger regionals (or if there's a special case like somebody shipped a robot, an inspector will be hanging out with or around that team while they uncrate). The job of whoever's in the pits is, currently, make sure that setup isn't happening and robot work isn't happening (and, to some extent, act as a walking quick-reference for schedule). When you add in multiple teams setting up (which tends to block views across the pits for some reason--even at L.A., it's pretty easy to see across the pits right after load-in if there isn't setup), it can get a little more interesting to observe and enforce, because now the inspectors actually have to enforce setup rules rather than just blocking setup. A couple of extra inspectors cruising the pits can help with keeping an eye on teams.


My proposal on the setup rules would be: no more than 5 persons (minimum one mentor) inside the venue at any one time per team; set up anything you like within your pit, including the battery chargers; any setup that is unsafe to perform with 5 or fewer persons for whatever reason (I can't think of any, but I'm sure there's something out there somewhere) will result in the team being told to wait on that; and teams that aren't out by some reasonable time after the doors close (5 minutes or so--gotta let the buzzer-beaters drop their gear off) suffer some minor penalty like having to finish in the morning after general opening (not during the morning load-in). Basically, use your noggin, get out on time, and don't crowd the pits.

I guess a way some venues could keep volunteers required low but allow set up could work. If the venue has enough space, you can require teams keep their bagged robots in some kind of neutral holding area until they are done setting up. As soon as you are done setting up, an RI at the holding area checks your form, escorts a team member and the robot to the pit, and escorts that team member back out.

I was unaware that a chief concern of FIRST would be strictly enforcing something that would be well self policed in the community (teams watching teams not unbagging on Wednesday nights) and while I will fail coming off sore here, they consider the idea of community self policing to be sufficient when it comes to the self proclaimed highest honor in FIRST.

I definitely like these moves, but on the whole barrier to access being a level of enforcement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jon Stratis]

The big concern with this change and bag and tag is someone accidentally unbagging early, and then having to go through some visible process with the LRI so that everyone knows things are fair.

At past events (at least in MN), we've visited each pit after that team is finished loading in and out a nice big green or red sheet on the robot saying they could unbag or that there is a problem they need to resolve first (like taking the bag and tag sheet back to the hotel with them instead of leaving it with the robot as requested). It provides a nice, obvious reminder for teams when they actually get to the venue to do work, and as a system has worked quite nicely. It also reduces pain all around as most teams get checked off the night before, and we only have to worry about a couple of teams the morning of.

With this change, teams will be hanging out in their pit the night before. Sure, they'll set up... And then they'll want to walk around, talk to other teams, check out other robots. Do we try to regulate or stop that? It'll be just like the chaos that normally happens when pits open for work on the first day. If we use the same red and green sheets, someone will undoubtedly see green and snip the ziptie without thinking. If we wait until everyone leaves, then the volunteers have to stay longer to finish the job.

And most of our venues don't have room for a "robot jail". It's something we've used for our state event before, but that event is only 30 teams held in a venue that holds a 63 team regional earlier in the season, which gives us plenty of room.

[Rick]

It would be nice to know where the trophy cost savings are being applied. Other than that, happy to see logical decisions being made in FRC.

[Christopher149]

Personally speaking, just so long as we always get at least 1 trophy, I'm happy. (I mean, they do look pretty cool)

[EDesbiens]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

Personally speaking, just so long as we always get at least 1 trophy, I'm happy. (I mean, they do look pretty cool)

So true

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

Personally speaking, just so long as we always get at least 1 trophy, I'm happy. (I mean, they do look pretty cool)

As long as they aren't the district trophies from 2012...

[Nathan Streeter]

In my opinion, the pit setup change is very good and long overdue (although irrelevant to our team in districts) and the trophy/plaque change is reasonable. I'd prefer that they make the second trophy a plaque than they shrink the trophies again... see below.

Originally Posted by EricH

They've already shrunk the size of the trophies once [cue massive complaints] and removed participation medals from the equation (for participation pins in the KOP).

It is amusing that our 2006 Granite State Regional Winner trophy is decisively larger than our more prestigious trophies from more recent seasons... and saddening.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

As long as they aren't the district trophies from 2012...

I somewhat remember those. Almost glad we didn't win awards that year (though, we didn't win any 2004-2014 exclusive)

[JB987]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

The big concern with this change and bag and tag is someone accidentally unbagging early, and then having to go through some visible process with the LRI so that everyone knows things are fair.

At past events (at least in MN), we've visited each pit after that team is finished loading in and out a nice big green or red sheet on the robot saying they could un bag or that there is a problem they need to resolve first (like taking the bag and tag sheet back to the hotel with them instead of leaving it with the robot as requested). It provides a nice, obvious reminder for teams when they actually get to the venue to do work, and as a system has worked quite nicely. It also reduces pain all around as most teams get checked off the night before, and we only have to worry about a couple of teams the morning of.

With this change, teams will be hanging out in their pit the night before. Sure, they'll set up... And then they'll want to walk around, talk to other teams, check out other robots. Do we try to regulate or stop that? It'll be just like the chaos that normally happens when pits open for work on the first day. If we use the same red and green sheets, someone will undoubtedly see green and snip the ziptie without thinking. If we wait until everyone leaves, then the volunteers have to stay longer to finish the job.

And most of our venues don't have room for a "robot jail". It's something we've used for our state event before, but that event is only 30 teams held in a venue that holds a 63 team regional earlier in the season, which gives us plenty of room.

I like the color code, John. Maybe inspectors could put a white sheet marked 'pre-inspected' on robot bags that clear initially, still use red for problems and kick teams out a half hour earlier than normal if you don't want to ask volunteers to stay a half hour extra. During half hour window with no teams in pits the inspectors just put a green check mark or sticker on the white pre-inspection sheet taped to the robot bags? Teams are told before, during load in that absolutely no bags are to be opened before Thursday morning and then only if green checked? Our load-in at LVR has been 6-8pm. Venue set up has always been far enough along that we could move start to 5:30 without problem if we still wanted teams to have 2 hours for load in/pit set up and get volunteers out by 8 pm. Several ways to make things work, I think.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

"robot jail"

I believe the correct term should be: Robo fermé

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

...

I assume you are connected enough to the RPC in Minnesota if you're not on it. Looks like y'all can just stick with keeping the current system in place since FIRST has left that option available.