FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Game of Thrones is cool, LARPing is not.

NASCAR is cool, FIRST is not. How does that sound? Are you offended?

If you don't want to have the standard, don't make one.

[mwmac]

Standards, badges and streamers, oh my...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8

[marshall]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

NASCAR is cool, FIRST is not. How does that sound? Are you offended?

If you don't want to have the standard, don't make one.

NASCAR is cool. There is a tremendous amount of engineering that goes into those cars. Guys with PHDs use supercomputers to run analysis of airflow over dents in the bodywork. For that matter, Formula 1 is cool too.

Actually, motorsport is a close approximation to what a mainstream FRC looks like. It's all about iterative design.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by marshall

NASCAR is cool. There is a tremendous amount of engineering that goes into those cars. Guys with PHDs use supercomputers to run analysis of airflow over dents in the bodywork. For that matter, Formula 1 is cool too.

Actually, motorsport is a close approximation to what a mainstream FRC looks like. It's all about iterative design.

EXACTLY!! (I prefer INDYCAR but that's another conversation).

The point is this: Why are we trying to put down something that another group likes to do? Are we in some sort of nerd pecking order? How many years have we been fighting to make robots "cool?" (It's still nerdy/geeky and i'm ok with that.) If you don't like the theme, that's fine. Don't partake in it. This "fantasy" theme is very mainstream. Look at the pop culture this is centered around fantasy. Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to appeal to a different population that has not been interested in FIRST before?

[Jared Russell]

I could not care less what the theme of the game is. A popular sport, excavating moon rocks, medieval times, waste management, or no theme at all...it's all the same to me.

What I do care about is that the game and engineering challenge are exciting and inspiring to watch and for teams of all levels to participate in. This is almost entirely independent of the theme - you can give any game mechanic a cute name that fits a given motif ("moon rocks", "litter", etc.)

Given that FIRST wants to reach as broad an audience as possible, it seems to me a reasonable decision for them to add a theme on top of a well-designed game challenge in order to appeal to other types of people. I only have so much energy for complaining every year, so I'd much rather save mine for things that matter.

[EDesbiens]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I could not care less what the theme of the game is. A popular sport, excavating moon rocks, medieval times, waste management, or no theme at all...it's all the same to me.

What I do care about is that the game and engineering challenge are exciting and inspiring to watch and for teams of all levels to participate in. This is almost entirely independent of the theme - you can give any game mechanic a cute name that fits a given motif ("moon rocks", "litter", etc.)

Given that FIRST wants to reach as broad an audience as possible, it seems to me a reasonable decision for them to add a theme on top of a well-designed game challenge in order to appeal to other types of people. I only have so much energy for complaining every year, so I'd much rather save mine for things that matter.

Thank you! I love it!

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

EXACTLY!! (I prefer INDYCAR but that's another conversation).

The point is this: Why are we trying to put down something that another group likes to do? Are we in some sort of nerd pecking order? How many years have we been fighting to make robots "cool?" (It's still nerdy/geeky and i'm ok with that.) If you don't like the theme, that's fine. Don't partake in it. This "fantasy" theme is very mainstream. Look at the pop culture this is centered around fantasy. Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to appeal to a different population that has not been interested in FIRST before?

Agreed. FIRST had sports themed games in 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013, and even some of the other games were still "sport-like". There's nothing wrong with trying something new. Robots will still be built and played with, and a new group of people may be reached. If people weren't brought into FIRST by all of the sports games we've had recently, why would they now?

Also to people just complaining and being negative here, please go be negative elsewhere.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

Also to people just complaining and being negative here, please go be negative elsewhere.

That's very open minded of you.

Remember, we all want the same thing here; more inspiration and a wider reach for the program.

We just disagree with the methods.

[Madison]

FIRST has a history of game design that does a poor job of incentivizing teams to do things in the manner the GDC envisioned and so they often create arbitrary, difficult to enforce rules so a game plays out the way they'd like. Often, this happens when a heavy-handed 'theme' is overlaid atop a game or when special focus is paid to what spectators think.

Here's hoping that the game itself is a good game first and thematically consistent second.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

If only more people were able to look past the medieval/fantasy themes and enjoy Game of Thrones. Perhaps then it would be recognized. It's a pity it's shoved into the corner as "too nerdy" for mainstream culture, however.

obvious sarcasm

I hope that's an invitation to go full "Red Wedding" at an event.

[Kevin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I hope that's an invitation to go full "Red Wedding" at an event.

Trial by robot combat to settle penalty disputes would be nice (especially if 254 can name Bite Force as our champion)

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

That's very open minded of you.

Remember, we all want the same thing here; more inspiration and a wider reach for the program.

We just disagree with the methods.

Fair enough.

I don't see why we have to have sport themed games for it to be "cool". I brought some friends of mine to a competition this year who would be considered "jocks" or "cool kids" and they didn't care that it was recycling themed (which I would say is worse than medieval in terms of bringing people into FIRST). All they saw were the cool robots doing things and how much fun it was.

Not everyone likes sports, some people like other things such as fantasy. We've had plenty of opportunities to use sports themes to bring people in. And this Standard is just like recycling cans this year: symbolic of a theme that matters less than the robots itself.

I guess my main beef with your point is that you're making it seem like its an awful thing to be nerdy, when in reality there's nothing wrong with it. My friends found FIRST nerdy but still enjoyed seeing the robots and competitions and thought it was awesome.

[Mark Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sheridan

Trial by robot combat to settle penalty disputes would be nice (especially if 254 can name Bite Force as our champion)

There we go! We finally got battlebots for a FIRST competition.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sheridan

Trial by robot combat to settle penalty disputes would be nice (especially if 254 can name Bite Force as our champion)

I was thinking student w/ pike on the robot cart but that works.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

Fair enough.

Not everyone likes sports, some people like other things such as fantasy. We've had plenty of opportunities to use sports themes to bring people in. And this Standard is just like recycling cans this year: symbolic of a theme that matters less than the robots itself.

I don't think this debate is sports vs non-sports. What I believe Adam and some of the others are trying to say is that a good robot game is more important than a theme. Ultimate Ascent wasn't sports themed, it used a Frisbee as a game object but there wasn't much of anything of Ultimate Frisbee involved, it was just a good robot game. Theme or not the most important aspects of robot games should be put at the top of the priority list. In my opinion watchable and strategically interesting games are more important then fleeting interest by pedestrians walking by (most people stop and look for a little while anyway, it's already cool robots). Often the themes takes away from that because if even a single thing about the game or balance is changed to make the theme better now you have made the game a little worse.

I like to look at most of the VEX games as good examples of robot games. Very few of them are themed in anyway but they allow for season long strategy and robot iterations (in most years).