high scored matches

[Mullen]

im sorry but just because the human player stacks stay up does not mean that the match was fixed. im sure a few matches were but its not fair to say that they all were.
more teams are beginnning to realize that leaving your opponents stacks up is very beneficial for their own score. in a match we had today at Great Lakes we had a score of 75 to 85, with both teams still having a stack of 5 in their zone and 0 robots on top(neither team counted due to a pushign match on top where both were touching the ramp). they werent up because the match was fixed they were up because it was a close match(2 bin difference) each team had a robot protecting the stacks and both teams were willing to take the risk of losing for a high QP.

if teams were more focused on a high score they would leave their opponents stacks up if it was a close match. if you loose you may still have a high score (75 instead of 17) and if you win you would get 150 from your opponent rather than 34
just my feelings, leave em up unless you absolutely need the win and arent willing to risk a possible loss

[chriscauf]

Has anyone thought that FIRST could be pairing the teams like they are on purpose. Because at kickoff I distinctly remember hearing that the game this year will not be fair. Maybe this is just an extension of that same idea.

[philipprogramer]

As a member of 762 (one of the teams with in Florida with high scores) and the winner of the seeding matches. I feel obliged to say that there was no collusion in our matches. One of our higher scores was won by one of our opponent's robot not functioning and the other was tipped upside down in autonomous mode. After that it was easy for us to take advantage of the situation to maximize our score. Another of our top scoring matches was won by good strategic blocking of our highest stack.

[Dan Richardson]

As the Florida Driver of My team ( 710 ) I will say that fixing on saturday did go on in just about every single match that took place today...

It started with one of the first matches ( won't mention it ) and a when judge came to look at our bot later she even comented that they most likely had made an agreement

The fixing that went on is plain and simple No one knocks over stacks everyone gets a big score get as many bots as you can to the top, the only thing it did was guarentee high score for the winner, it did nothing to actually dertimine the outcome of the game

Dan

[Keith Chester]

Originally posted by chriscauf
Has anyone thought that FIRST could be pairing the teams like they are on purpose. Because at kickoff I distinctly remember hearing that the game this year will not be fair. Maybe this is just an extension of that same idea.

FIRST would not, under any circumstances, expect one team to do better than another. In other words, they don't play favorites in any way.

[JasonA]

... how honest and fair the chief delphi driver coach is, those accusations would not have been claimed. I should know, I'm his son.

I am not mad about the accusation, and can sympathize with some that may want to look at the situation in the light you did. 304 qualifying points was untouched all weekend. But I can assure you that it was (as team 519 put it earlier) pure luck.

In order to do what people have claimed to have happened, this is what needed to occur...

1. Both teams would need to know exactly how many bins each team had in scoring position... not an easy task with so many obsticals in the way.

2. If they wanted to really run the score up, why choose stacks of 4 and not the Florida version stacks of 8? By the way, those watching the match in question would have seen Delphi take out an opponents stack of three (not being able to see the stack of 4 out of sight on the other side of the field behind another robot)...

3. All teams would have had to AGREE to let each other on the ramp... if you can say that happend you were watching a different match!

All in all, I am 200% positive that no collusion was involved and I believe that by looking at the facts so can anyone else. I thought that the Great Lakes regional was very well played by every team in attendance.

It appears to me, that there is alot about this particular game that forces each person to check themselves and what level of morality they put on this competition.

If asked if they would change anything about the game, now that they seen it, would FIRST change anything at all? I wouldn't, if I were them.

Why should they? I believe they have accomplished exactly what they wanted to do. Part of which is, providing you... the teams... with choices and grey areas. That's ethics, that's life, and I commend them if that was their intent! And you thought this game was all about knocking over a wall of plastic tubs....

[OneAngryDaisy]

Live with the fact that FIRST will not change the scoring system. Imagine the NFL announcing that field goals were worth 6 points right smack-dab in the middle of the season.

The only way to resolve this conflict would be to have everyone sign a agreement... and that's not likely to happen- Team 68 has already tried valiantly..


Remember that if one, one team says no, the match cannot be fixed. You all have the chance to be that one team.

[Keith Chester]

Well put.

[Koci]

First of all, the petition DID work in AZ.

Second, I really like what Jason said

I believe they have accomplished exactly what they wanted to do. Part of which is, providing you... the teams... with choices and grey areas. That's ethics, that's life, and I commend them if that was their intent! And you thought this game was all about knocking over a wall of plastic tubs....

Although I do not believe it was FIRST's intent, I think that a lot of kids (and mentors, too) have learned something about ethical behavior. I think we should continue in this spirit and try to turn this into a positive learning experience for all of us.

[goegan31]

This "fixing" matches in my opinion has gone to far here. Loo, some teams will do it, it is very tempting. I say, accept it happens and move on. It has been obvious this year that teams that should be winning arn't, it is just the game. Since everyone seems to have a solution, I figure I may as well give mine. Those opposed to "fixing" matches, don't do it; I know my team won't, but also don't accuse a high scoring match to be fixed. Let's just be Gracious Professionals, smile and move on! That's my $0.02.

[DaveO'B365]

this has been an interesting read here... i know i'm a little late here, but i think a lot of good points were made. i would have to agree that fixing is wrong, although there is absolutely no way to prove it, unless someone admits to it. some people are gung-ho against it, and some people agree with it, if you agree with it, i don't see the issue with admission, unless you don't think it's really kosher, in which case i would consider that not really agreeing with it. where there's fixing, there's going to be some back-stabbing, and that isn't the spirit of first. the way you can adjust the score, which i didn't see anywhere is "your score + the loser's" that would eliminate any sort of backstabbing, and i think there's nothing wrong with that style of scoring. there would be no benefit of blowing someone away vs. winning by a little, and both teams benefit. fixing is wrong, i've suspected it in the past, but we should end the discussion about certain regionals and teams and matches. just state your opinion, your solution, or if you think it's ok. otherwise, there is really no point in making accusations. and if you're not making an accusation or stating your opinion, there's no reason to post. i may be 'beating a dead horse' here, but i figured i'd try to help out :-p

[Jack Jones]

Originally posted by Paul W.
...and I'm glad that most of the teams were noble enough not to stoop to that level.

It is most unkind to disparage a team on the very forum they most graciously provide. That match was among the many that this year’s format tends to produce - a fluke. The fact was that we could not maneuver well enough to reach the stacks, let alone knock them over. Out robot was having a mechanical problem, as evidenced by the scores in our matches – 35, 41, 304, 22, 6, and 150.

Chief Delphi did not cheat their way into the FIRST Hall of Fame. They were inducted because they, along with the other seven members, exemplify the Spirit of FIRST. Your remarks, on the other hand, do not.

[Cory]

Can we stop turning these threads into mud-slinging contests? Oh yeah, dont we already have what, like 3 or 4 threads on this topic? This thread started out in a bad way, and turned even worse. How do all you know what really went on at a competition? Because you watched a webcast? I think not. You dont know what *REALLY* happened unless you were a little fly on the wall of the alliance stations. Stop the acusations, stop polluting CD with foul remarks about other teams, stop the arguing. Lately I've seen a huge increase in ungracious behavior due to this so called match fixing, and you know what? Its really ruining CD. I know many people that may stop frequenting CD just because of these childish arguements. Why is it so hard to get along? Why do people feel the need to accuse others of something because you find it hard to believe they didnt cheat? Isnt the law in America "Innocent until proven guilty"? The fact of the matter is, as much as you may think a match was "fixed" you werent there, you werent one of the teams that played in these matches. Until someone who was on these "fixed" alliances comes out and says that the match was fixed, noone can say it was fixed. Is all this discussion and argument really helping matters? In reality, it is just tearing us apart. The more this is discussed, the more people are alienated. This isnt getting anywhere, FIRST isnt going to change the rules. They will never know if anyone "fixed" a match. What are they going to do, DQ a team from the competition because they had a stack of 8 standing? Are they going to submit the drive team of an alliance with 300+ pts to a polygraph test to see if they "fixed" the match? The answer: NO!!!!!!!! FIRST is going to do nothing about this matter, so stop beating a dead horse. If you have problems with this, keep them to yourself, or talk to your team about them.

Im sorry about the length of my post, but this is really saddening me, and I felt that I had to express my opinion. Im also sorry if Ive offended anyone, which Im sure I have.

Cory

[Travis Hoffman]

Rival corporations often partner together to share technology or collaborate on research projects. Both companies stand to benefit equally and positively from this cooperation. I consider any mutual agreement between alliance opponents to leave stacks standing to be a sensible and just agreement similar to those I mention above. Both parties recognize the possibility - not guarantee - of increased productivity (scores) as a result of such an agreement.

While these rival corporations recognize the positive mutual benefits technology and research sharing can yield, they also understand that they are competitors in a free marketplace, and to collaborate or collude any further to predetermine prices, profits, etc. in that marketplace is unethical and destructive to the concepts of competition and free enterprise. Opposing alliances that collude to predetermine the final match outcome in any way are destroying the competitive spirit of the competition and are creating a less exciting version of the game for the spectators. ALL TEAMS SHOULD FIGHT TO WIN THEIR MATCHES AT ALL TIMES. As discussed above, fighting to win does not necessarily include toppling the opponent's stacks.

In summary, I believe that:

A.) Agreements to leave stacks standing are fair, legal, and indicate an understanding of the scoring rules. The rest of the match MUST, however, be played with both alliances trying their best to win.

B.) Predetermination of match outcomes is unjust, destroys game excitement for the spectator, and violates the spirit of FIRST.

C.) It would be difficult and perhaps foolish for FIRST to institute disciplinary actions for match "fixing", primarily because it would be hard to demonstrate concrete proof of such violations, and such a system would only serve to spread mistrust and doubt among teams at these competitions.

I hope everyone can take a step back from this argument, relax, and take a breather. I wish those people who have a problem with the conduct of other teams would put their faith in gracious professionalism. Let's trust that those who predetermine match outcomes learn the error of their ways (their conduct in the qualifying rounds certainly doesn't help them any during the eliminations, does it?). In the meantime, perhaps it would be more honorable, productive, and preserving of our sanity to focus on improving the quality and performance of our own teams. That is the one thing we always have direct control over, and isn't it more satisfying to celebrate our own accomplishments than to question the performance of others?

[Matt Reiland]

I can see how fixing could happen or appear to happen but it should be VERY clear to everyone that if you get to the elimination matches by fixing your score, you will be out of the running rather quickly and it will be obvious to everyone in the finals if you can't perform to the level that your score shows.

This year is just like every past year where luck plays into it tons. If you are lucky to have great alliance partners you have a chance at getting great scores. Sadly some of the worst scores I saw were from 4 fantastic robots that literally gave it everything they had for the entire match and there were usually no bins left and maybe 2 robots on top. Your best chance for a high score is a dead robot or one that isn't performing well and 2 full powered robots.

Also I would like to add that a team like 111 was, well, 'wild' at protecting a stack with a wedge and swerve it is very tough to get around them. (Although Nachi had alot of success) anyone who didn't see the auto mode should check it out, it goes over the bridge and automatically comes over to the stack and parks in front of it ready for operator control. Very nice indeed.