On being rude ...

[D.Allred]

Originally Posted by Taylor

...

If you as a reader feel somebody is being unnecessarily rude, it may be for different reasons. It may be because
1)the individual is, in fact, a jerk;
2)the individual is full of anonymous Internet bravado;
3)the individual is operating off faulty premise or bias;
4)the individual is very passionate about the subject;
5)the individual doesn't realize s/he is being rude and does not know any better;
6)the individual doesn't realize s/he is being rude and can't help it.

While any of these four may be true, they all should be treated differently. And as it is difficult to tell through black text on a white background, I would counsel my colleagues to not jump directly to conclusion 1).

Agreed. Communication through writing is a difficult skill and is definitely not my forte. To me, it's not simply a matter of being rude or polite - it's a matter of being professional.

Before you respond, would you answer your client's questions that way?

Before asking for technical advice, have you properly worded your request?

David

[Nemo]

I agree that posting "use the search" or "read the manual" by itself is rude. And I also think it is lazy to ask questions without doing the slightest bit of research. It's possible to believe both of those things simultaneously if you think it makes sense to be considerate to other people.

I think the bullying comes in when somebody ends up on the "wrong" end of hot button issues, even if they are constructive about it. Don't be "wrong" about one of those topics around here, or a bunch of people are gonna get crabby in a hurry.

[GreyingJay]

My thoughts on the subject:

1. I think rudeness and snappy comebacks are becoming the norm in society. Ever watch a TV sitcom from 20, 30, 40 years ago and think "this is boring" or when someone says a line that, at the time was considered snappy, you think "... that's not funny"?

Shows like the Simpsons were one time seen as edgy and subversive but that brought along a host of copycats and as those speech patterns became the norm in our schoolyards and workplaces, along came a host of new shows that stepped it up a notch to be edgier and funnier. Repeat over and over.

Now we have a generation of people who think this is just the way everyone talks. And, they're right.

2. In this age of social media, people REALLY like their likes. I had a teenager I know come up to me and complain "you comment on my Instagram posts... but you never like them." He was serious! To me it's just a "like" or a dot or fave but for this connected generation it is an important piece of validation, for better or for worse.

I heard that now that Twitter has switched from "favourite" to "like" the usage of the new button has already increased 6%. People like their hearts.

3. Writing a clever post that subtly puts someone down can be fun, but like others have mentioned, these posts will be here "forever". I regularly Google for questions and read CD threads from years back. Your future potential sponsor may be doing the same. Your future students may be too! (To anyone from 2706 that sees this - hi ) Always ask "is this how I want the world to forever remember me?"

If you know what to search for you can find things I posted to Usenet 20+ years ago. Posts that make me cringe.

4. Foster's post was very good, very informative, and contained the historical information needed to add perspective to the discussion. Our team is new so I'm learning about FIRST Choice and AndyMark's contribution to FRC as we go, so I appreciated his post (and that whole thread, really). I think it was that last line, that closing "zinger", that everyone got up in arms about. Take away that last line and everything would have been just fine.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I agree that posting "use the search" or "read the manual" by itself is rude. And I also think it is lazy to ask questions without doing the slightest bit of research. It's possible to believe both of those things simultaneously if you think it makes sense to be considerate to other people.

A) All readers should remember that I wrote (pertaining to this subtopic) that posters should be steered civilly onto a better path.

B) I'm sincerely curious why you chose to label the hypothetical OP as "lazy" and the hypothetical responder as "rude". Aren't they both lazy? Or both rude? What justifies painting them with different brushes?

Blake

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Is anyone concerned that rude, sarcastic, or otherwise off-putting responses may drive students away from CD? I know I've had students tell me they avoid CD because "everyone is mean" after they've lurked for a bit...

That is a problem with any online community. Over time, unwritten rules of behavior develop and when new members arrive, they are held to standards that they don't understand.

It is easy to be blindsided by a terse response to a question that you thought was pertinent but within the community has been answered many times over.

It's easy as a long time community member to forget what it's like to not know the community's rules. CD does a pretty good job informing new users with the sticky posts but as an "older user" it's my responsibility to be gentle with anyone who has a post count under 10 and it's important for the new members to understand that lurking an learning the community before posting is a smart idea.

[Lil' Lavery]

Asking for an answer to a question without searching or consulting the manual before hand can be rude or lazy. But a rude/lazy post doesn't mean you have to give them a rude/lazy reply.

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by DareDad

It's easy as a long time community member to forget what it's like to not know the community's rules. CD does a pretty good job informing new users with the sticky posts but as an "older user" it's my responsibility to be gentle with anyone who has a post count under 10 and it's important for the new members to understand that lurking an learning the community before posting is a smart idea.

Sometimes we forget that we belong to a particular culture that other people aren't familiar with yet. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. I used Windows PCs for years before I bought my first Mac. I found a large Mac forum and posted a question that went something like "In Windows I could do ___ and that was really handy, how do I do this on a Mac?" EVERY answer I got was a condescending variation of "we don't do that around here". Multiple people tried to tell me why I was doing it wrong, and if I would only adapt my ways to Apple's ways and see the light, I would be happier. At least one person said "if that's what you want then go back to Windows". Not a friendly community at all -- until you conform to their culture. But I think we all sometimes send that kind of message, whether we intend to or not.

[Oblarg]

There's a difference between being direct and being unpleasant. I know that I certainly have learned a lot about where the line between the two falls over the past few years, and I certainly have lots more to learn (as do most people, I think).

The key, I think, is to remember that no matter how much you disagree with someone else, they likely are posting in good faith and share many of the values you do. One can disagree strongly without being alienating if they keep this in mind. The purpose of a forum is for honest discourse for the betterment of all involved - if we all agreed about everything, there would be nothing to discuss. The exchange of ideas can only remain productive if both sides maintain the willingness to critically evaluate their own views in light of what other people say - when someone feels attacked, that willingness tends to evaporate, and the discussion ceases to be useful (and, often, enjoyable).

One habit I have tried to get into is intentionally softening my posts before I click "submit." Remove superlatives, qualify opinions, and the like. It can go a long way towards keeping a discussion productive.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Asking for an answer to a question without searching or consulting the manual before hand can be rude or lazy. But a rude/lazy post doesn't mean you have to give them a rude/lazy reply.

QFT!

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Asking for an answer to a question without searching or consulting the manual before hand can be rude or lazy. But a rude/lazy post doesn't mean you have to give them a rude/lazy reply.

For the record, I don't consider replies "Read the manual, the answer you want is in there, along with related important information."; or even the occasional "Read the manual." to be rude or lazy.

And, unless a close-enough-for-it-to-be-OK relationship between the two people exists outside of the topic at hand, I do consider "Read the manual, dipstick." to be rude.

With this in mind, I 100% agree with LL.

YMMV

Blake

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by gblake

For the record, I don't consider replies "Read the manual, the answer you want is in there, along with related important information."; or even the occasional "Read the manual." to be rude or lazy.

YMMV

Blake

If someone asked you how to spell a common word would you respond with "Read the dictionary!"?

Anything to help with where in the manual the information might be is better than nothing. I you can't provide any help then don't respond.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Is anyone concerned that rude, sarcastic, or otherwise off-putting responses may drive students away from CD? I know I've had students tell me they avoid CD because "everyone is mean" after they've lurked for a bit...

Unabashedly toss them into the relatively-tepid boiling cauldron of CD debate - it will help melt the 26,000 layers of bubble wrap applied by others to "protect" them from processing opposing viewpoints and interacting with the "scary" world at large.

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Anything to help with where in the manual the information might be is better than nothing. I you can't provide any help then don't respond.

Yes, I'd prefer an answer like "Have a look at [R18], that should give you the answer you're looking for."

Bonus points for forum members who can quote what rule it is without looking it up

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by GreyingJay

Yes, I'd prefer an answer like "Have a look at [R18], that should give you the answer you're looking for."

Bonus points for forum members who can quote what rule it is without looking it up

+1

[gblake]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

If someone asked you how to spell a common word would you respond with "Read the dictionary!"?

Anything to help with where in the manual the information might be is better than nothing. I you can't provide any help then don't respond.

A) Yes, I have. Some people need to learn to use a dictionary, or other methods, when those are handy. Other times I have helped them spell the word (or at least helped them guess).

Often the difference is how much time I have to devote to their problem. When I say "Look it up." I'm letting them know, I am under some sort of deadline pressure, and I am efficiently pointing them in the direction of success. Other times I welcome a chat. The recipient (or the reader) needs to remember that both circumstances are possibilities, and not automatically get in a huff if they receive the short answer.

B) Step one is to read, and/or search the/a manual; and telling a person the answer they want *is* in the manual, and not in Q&A, or Frank's Blog, or ... is supplying help. Once you, as a questioner learn/accept that you have an obligation (as the person who wants the favor) to accomplish step one, then step two can be asking for help with search terms to use, or with narrowing down what section(s) to read, or ...

A short "Read the XYZ manual." reply is telling the person asking the question exactly what step one of the solution is, and allows them to return to ask more questions after they have accomplished step one.

If someone else posts a more complete answer (because they like doing other people's homework, or happen to have memorized a section/rule that is pertinent, or simply because they have spare time that they want to use in that way); good for them! But, I disagree that the shorter answer is rude. And, IMO many of the longer answers (often) reinforce a bad habit.

YMMV

Blake