Mythical Six Week Build Season

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by avanboekel

3) Team E has a lot of resources. They could build 2 different robots for use with different strategies. They can bring them both to competition, and just reinspect their chosen robot each time they want to play a different position in the game.

Are there rules that could circumvent these scenarios? Probably, but these are definitely things that would need to be addressed before we drop bag day.

Both robots would have to be under 120 pounds. Both robots combined could only have 1 control system. So this is pretty much prevented already.

[timytamy]

As an international team, we would need a stop build day regardless.

Generally, we need to crate and ship the robot at least a week before a regional. And if we're going to championships, or another overseas regional, there is no time to ship it back, work, and ship it out again.

Granted, in Australia we have a regional now. This however dosen't help a lot of other teams.

At the Australian regional, we were also very lucky to have some US teams come over. I think if you eliminated bag and tag, then teams that may be interested in going to regionals luck ours, would be discouraged for losing that 2 or more weeks or robot time in transit. I'd be intereseted to hear what the Hawaian teams think of this.

I think eliminating stop build day would give a massive boost in competetivness to many teams, but there would be a group that are left behind.

[PayneTrain]

I think it's in FIRST's best interests to eliminate bag day if they have any vested interest in improving both the on-field product (better competition) and off-field product (better and more numerous opportunities for education). I would assume they care about at least one of these things.

On top of that, FIRST has championed expanding the reach of the program to under-served areas. In fact, Don reiterated that point in the video released today. As it stands, a nontrivial number of teams are needlessly consuming thousands of dollars in redundant resources every year to field a practice robot. That money could be filtered back in to supporting additional existing or potential rookie teams without the current team suffering at all competitively.

"But Wil, they could just not build a practice robot now and filter that money back into the FIRST community."

Teams are run independently of what FIRST may want teams to focus on. Teams may find fielding a highly competitive program to be a better use of their time than helping to field an additional team that would risk both teams being less competitive than the original team. Eliminating bag day can help nudge teams to help out other teams.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Simple, choose to stop working.

Just like you can choose to not work on a practice robot now.

While you are right, there are a lot of teams where if one or two particular people stop working with the team, then the team takes a serious hit. It's definitely not good for the team to be operating like that, but it is a reality. The decision to let so many people IS still up to you, but it isn't always a simple one.

[JB987]

Originally Posted by JVN

I'd be 100% in favor of eliminating "bag day" and shifting to a "kickoff-to-competition" schedule. We'd do less work, be less stressed, and consume less resources while probably providing a better educational experience.

+1!...my opinion and not necessarily a reflection of how all the rest of my fellow advisors feel

[Seth Mallory]

I for one like the stop date. While the students will keep on working it will be at a lower level. No more nights or weekends. The main problem is that the main mentors need the break. By this point families want their members that they loaned to the team back. College work needs to be caught up. Yards and houses that have been ignored need worked on. Prepping for classes and other jobs needs to be done. Winding down and catching up on sleep is a health problem that needs to be addressed. I also miss being home enough to cook some meals.

[jman4747]

Yea, I'd say do away with it. If you plan your time right you won't have to cram in so many hours at the beginning. Mentors may not need to come as many days a week over a longer period.

Practice bots are subverted and shipping costs matter less because you can afford to wait longer. On that line of thought, I wonder how this would affect vendors like Rev, AndyMark, Vex, etc. (if at all).

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Seth Mallory

I for one like the stop date. While the students will keep on working it will be at a lower level. No more nights or weekends. The main problem is that the main mentors need the break. By this point families want their members that they loaned to the team back. College work needs to be caught up. Yards and houses that have been ignored need worked on. Prepping for classes and other jobs needs to be done. Winding down and catching up on sleep is a health problem that needs to be addressed. I also miss being home enough to cook some meals.

I have difficulty understanding this point of view. Do you not understand that

A) teams are already meeting after stop build day at a volume similar to build season

B) teams are not obligated to meet at the same volume after build season as they were before build season, and they would be under no other obligation to do that if bag day is eliminated

Or is there another breakdown somewhere?

[Scott Kozutsky]

Originally Posted by timytamy

I think eliminating stop build day would give a massive boost in competetivness to many teams, but there would be a group that are left behind.

You're definitely right but I, like many others it seems, think that it's for the greater good. You could still do the practice robot strategy that many teams already use, it just wouldn't be necessary for the other teams to also do it.

To prevent excessive cheesecaking, there could be a rule that you can't donate non-cots parts to another team (possibly with a "unless specifically allowed by the lead inspector" exemption for specific circumstances)

[gblake]

Hmmm, On the one hand ...

If I'm FIRST and I want to inspire students, and pack a real-world-style engineering/science/technology challenge into a period that enhances a student's education, without losing sight of everything else important in students' lives ... I might decide that 44 days is plenty long enough for the students to enjoy & receive the benefits of the Strategy-to-Delivery, before-a-deadline, part of the experience.

Hopefully, as the teams mature, their students and their mentors will learn to set realistic goals for what they set out to accomplish each season during that 44-day period.

Hopefully, during those 44 days, those teams that are able, will fan out to cooperate with neighboring teams that struggle to be ready for the competition events.

On the other hand ...

If you call the program a "competition", and if you turn the competitions into showcases, and if you create a program that celebrates excellence, it would be a little myopic to not expect constant overt and subconscious pressure from teams, and from almost everyone else, to put excellent robots onto the fields.

My 2 cents ...

Focus on expanding participation in the program, not on expanding the time & resources the program consumes. The program's vision can be accomplished more easily if competition-creep is resisted.

If people want to go nuts (in a good way) squeezing as many accomplishments as they possibly can into the 44 days they get to invest in prepping for the competitions, the program doesn't need to try to hobble them, but that possible/optional aspect of the program shouldn't be the engine that pulls the train.

Be excellent for 44 days, then let the chips fall where they may.

Blake

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I have difficulty understanding this point of view. Do you not understand that

A) teams are already meeting after stop build day at a volume similar to build season

How many teams do this? 5%? 10%? 20%?

There are a lot of teams that quit building on bag day, and they show up to the competition with 6 weeks worth of designed and built robot. It appears that most of them are not on CD during the off season, to comment on threads like this.

I like the 6 week cutoff. This year, our team is going to build two robots and keep going from January to April. Not my decision, but I'll go along and see how it works. We are not meeting as many hours each day, as well.

I understand that FIRST can't really control the whole practice robot thing, so it is really difficult to enforce stop build day.

I kind of like a firm deadline. I even depend on it, for most of my own projects. I can't seem to get anything done unless it needs to be done by such and such a day. Maybe I just use bag day as a crutch...or maybe the limited build time was part of the original idea of FRC...

[waialua359]

I like the stop build day.
I found it odd that some feel it's an advantage for less resource teams to get rid of it. I feel the opposite is true.
More resources will allow the "better" teams to take advantage of what they see and do a quick turnaround before the next subsequent event.

Getting rid of the 6 week build season helps some teams but not the Hawaii and international ones. I dont mind it in VEX because we are doing all of our events locally where we can drive to events, similar to teams in FRC that drive to their events.

I realize that we are in the minority, so I totally get why teams would want to get rid of it. We are very fortunate and have been lucky the past 6 years in being succesful at regionals despite making almost no changes or none at all to our robot that is bagged at the end of the season. In fact, it never comes back home until after championships.
We have also never had the time to ever build a 2nd robot, because we spend most of the time traveling all the time!
For us, it makes no difference doing a week 1 or a week 6 event, our drivers need to be ready because other than the last week of build season to hopefully practice and get drive time, that's it until they do an event, subsequent events, and at Championships.

I always chuckle a little when teams say an event is a work in progress and will be back better at the next one. These events cost $$$$, and for us who have to travel there, a whole lot more $$$$$$$. I try to stress to our team that at each and every event, we need to be prepared the same as the last one we do.

This in my opinion is what makes build season special.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Weird.

We're very transparent on our team that we essentially work year round, and that build season extends through the last day of champs. Doesn't seem to cause anyone to lose faith halfway through.

Originally Posted by MrForbes

How many teams do this? 5%? 10%? 20%?

There are a lot of teams that quit building on bag day, and they show up to the competition with 6 weeks worth of designed and built robot.

To be honest, the fiction of a six week build season helps keep me on the team, even though most years I'm the most gung-ho mentor (and often member in any capacity) to continue working until the season is over. While we certainly do not stop all robot work at bag and tag, we usually do take about a week off (or at least mostly off), apart from driver practice with the "other robot". After a week or two of driver practice and a week or two of watching videos, we'll work on adjustments. Key build team members usually work on designing and building adjustments, while other members work on getting the pits ready, organizing scouting, and other functions such as give-aways. We're usually back up to about 80% of the "build season" operations tempo by the time we go to Bayou.
I really believe that we would come out behind if we had a "full-on" development season right up to our competition, due to the numbers who would not commit anything. YMMV.

[Sperkowsky]

The 6 weeks is perfect without it the average team would probably stay the same and the Elite teams would probably have even better bots.

Although I would not mind practice robots becoming illegal just because its not feasible for most teams and creates an even more unfair playing field.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

How many teams do this? 5%? 10%? 20%?

There are a lot of teams that quit building on bag day, and they show up to the competition with 6 weeks worth of designed and built robot. It appears that most of them are not on CD during the off season, to comment on threads like this.

I like the 6 week cutoff. This year, our team is going to build two robots and keep going from January to April. Not my decision, but I'll go along and see how it works. We are not meeting as many hours each day, as well.

I understand that FIRST can't really control the whole practice robot thing, so it is really difficult to enforce stop build day.

I kind of like a firm deadline. I even depend on it, for most of my own projects. I can't seem to get anything done unless it needs to be done by such and such a day. Maybe I just use bag day as a crutch...or maybe the limited build time was part of the original idea of FRC...

I would say that over half of the teams quit on bag day, easily. They may even quit before. A lot of teams only work weekends. Some show up to competition with a box of parts or even an old robot. A few teams don't show up at all. Teams do a lot of things differently, and a big one is how much they meet. It doesn't really change the fact that bag day is an artificial wall that some either circumvent with money, time, or both, and some don't circumvent it at all.

Over half the roster at most events sit out during eliminations. Why not end the event there since most teams aren't doing much after qualification matches are over?