X-Carve as a budget CNC?

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

From what you are describing here it sounds like you have an EZ-TRAK? If so you can use HSMxpress to generate G-code for it after tweaking some parameters, that's what we do anyway. Alternatively you can take the time to modify a post processor's code so that it uses the correct syntax that the Bridgeport will understand(or edit the posted code manually if you are feeling masochistic).

Not sure off the top of my head exactly what it is, I googled the EZ-TRAK and the layout is very similar but the interface is different than anything I could see in image search. I'll see if I can dig up a picture I took of it a while back (won't be back in the shop till next week to look).

I think one of our mentors manually edited some generated G-Code to make it work one time a while back, but I think he decided it was too impractical to do on a regular basis as he never tried it again. Unfortunately HSMxpress doesn't help us much as we CAD in Inventor, though I have been meaning to try out the CAM tools in Fusion 360, which appear to be similar.

[Munchskull]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

I think one of our mentors manually edited some generated G-Code to make it work one time a while back, but I think he decided it was too impractical to do on a regular basis as he never tried it again. Unfortunately HSMxpress doesn't help us much as we CAD in Inventor, though I have been meaning to try out the CAM tools in Fusion 360, which appear to be similar.

I believe this is the Inventor flavor of HSMxpress. HSMxpress is made by Autodesk so it only makes sense that there would be a version for Inventor.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Munchskull

I believe this is the Inventor flavor of HSMxpress. HSMxpress is made by Autodesk so it only makes sense that there would be a version for Inventor.

It got bought out by autodesk, it was initially a solidworks only plug in. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by R.C.

It got bought out by autodesk, it was initially a solidworks only plug in. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That's correct.

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Not sure off the top of my head exactly what it is, I googled the EZ-TRAK and the layout is very similar but the interface is different than anything I could see in image search. I'll see if I can dig up a picture I took of it a while back (won't be back in the shop till next week to look).

I think one of our mentors manually edited some generated G-Code to make it work one time a while back, but I think he decided it was too impractical to do on a regular basis as he never tried it again. Unfortunately HSMxpress doesn't help us much as we CAD in Inventor, though I have been meaning to try out the CAM tools in Fusion 360, which appear to be similar.

Inventor HSM, HSMXpress, and Fusion 360 are pretty much identical. They are all based on the Autodesk HSM kernel. You can select custom output options in "Post Process" > "Post Configuration" to output EZ-Trak formatted code and file format (.pgm). Hopefully you get more use out of the machine now!

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by Munchskull

I believe this is the Inventor flavor of HSMxpress. HSMxpress is made by Autodesk so it only makes sense that there would be a version for Inventor.

Yup, came across this last night but I couldn't find a free student version until just now (it doesn't show up on the browse list on the Autodesk Student page so I had to do some digging). It appears to be a much nicer solution than Fusion 360.

Here's the link if anyone's interested:
http://www.autodesk.com/education/fr...ventor-hsm-pro

[Ryan Dognaux]

4329 just purchased an X-Carve a few weeks ago and is in the process of assembling it. We also bought the 1000 mm variant and basically went with the 'provide us everything' option which runs around $1500. While we hope to have this supplement our build processes, we're also hoping to use it as a way to get more kids excited about learning to design in CAD similar to what 3D printing has done for us.

There is a significant amount of information on the Inventables forums on making the 1000 mm machine more rigid for each axis. For the X-Axis, the main issue comes from each maker rail extrusion bar being supported by only 2 screws on each plate. With no supports in-between the two rails, this can allow for flexing especially when cutting harder materials.

A pretty quick and easy solution is to just put some kind of material between the two rails, detailed in this thread: https://discuss.inventables.com/t/wi...kerslides/9448

We're trying the solution of 3D printing support ribs and placing them throughout the two rails - http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:503437

Basically any question you have has probably been answered on the Inventables forums, I'd highly suggest spending an hour just researching stuff.

We plan to post a short white paper detailing our experiences with this machine and hope to have it ready in December.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Two questions:

1. Could you explain more about how you modified the belt system? Possibly include pictures?
2. In your opinion could an X-Carve be used to build "mission-critical" parts for FRC robots?
   I'm considering getting one of these to speed up fabrication of our drive system, but the drive modules are expensive to make (or rather, to have to make more than once if they get screwed up) and require somewhat high tolerances (but within what the X-Carve advertises to have).
   Currently we make these parts on an (older) large Bridgeport 2-axis CNC mill, but between the setup, pre-cutting, and programming it takes an operator about 3 hours a day for the better part of a week to complete.

1. Please see pictures at this link. Essentially I wrapped the belt around in a slightly different way so the teeth would be forced into each other.
2. Yes, with modifications done to increase accuracy. Out of the box, carving aluminum I had a part that came out looking like this. I think the improvements that Ryan posted above for the machine would fix the quality issues I'm seeing in this cut. The hole is about 1" in diameter, originally it was supposed to be larger but I ran into scaling issues with Easel.

*Edit* It looks like Iventables has updated their belting instructions to run the same way.

[gof]

I'm the mentor for an FTC team. As such, I've been looking over options in case the team ever moves upwards (and I've been following the CNC's for awhile). I really like the Openbuilds OX platform as it seems to match the needs for a robust, extendable (and precise) frame system with reasonable cost. I believe there are a few folks that will supply the parts as a kit. See the discussion area for more info and the first few posts have the current kit suppliers
http://www.openbuilds.com/builds/ope...c-machine.341/
One supplier in the USA (http://www.smw3d.com/ox-diy-cnc-kit/)

Like all Openbuilds, there is a great community effort. In addition to the discussion thread, there is a G+ group
https://plus.google.com/communities/...28951643236736

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by gof

I'm the mentor for an FTC team. As such, I've been looking over options in case the team ever moves upwards (and I've been following the CNC's for awhile). I really like the Openbuilds OX platform as it seems to match the needs for a robust, extendable (and precise) frame system with reasonable cost. I believe there are a few folks that will supply the parts as a kit. See the discussion area for more info and the first few posts have the current kit suppliers
http://www.openbuilds.com/builds/ope...c-machine.341/
One supplier in the USA (http://www.smw3d.com/ox-diy-cnc-kit/)

Like all Openbuilds, there is a great community effort. In addition to the discussion thread, there is a G+ group
https://plus.google.com/communities/...28951643236736

A mentor on the team I used to mentor bought one this past summer. He has been happy with it given its limitations.

[gof]

Originally Posted by protoserge

A mentor on the team I used to mentor bought one this past summer. He has been happy with it given its limitations.

Care to expand on the limitations? Always good to see the pros and cons, especially from someone with experience (even second hand).

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by gof

Care to expand on the limitations? Always good to see the pros and cons, especially from someone with experience (even second hand).

Size, rigidity, depth of cut, chip size, etc. You can't hog on a small, lightweight router, so you are limited to taking shallow cuts with low feed-per-tooth. I'm not advocating these solutions are poor, just understand the speed and accuracy limitations of these machines will be limited to the inherent design. What I saw looked pretty good. The dimensional tolerance was good enough for FRC and the machine was portable, which helps out his team's limited shop access.

You get a huge upgrade when you go to a heavy, solid machine that can make very fast rapids and cuts. You can run appropriate/aggressive feedrates and a larger depth of cut per pass resulting in greater material removal rates and faster cycle times.

[gof]

Originally Posted by protoserge

Size, rigidity, depth of cut, chip size, etc. You can't hog on a small, lightweight router, so you are limited to taking shallow cuts with low feed-per-tooth. I'm not advocating these solutions are poor, just understand the speed and accuracy limitations of these machines will be limited to the inherent design. What I saw looked pretty good. The dimensional tolerance was good enough for FRC and the machine was portable, which helps out his team's limited shop access.

You get a huge upgrade when you go to a heavy, solid machine that can make very fast rapids and cuts. You can run appropriate/aggressive feedrates and a larger depth of cut per pass resulting in greater material removal rates and faster cycle times.

Ok, but what you're referring to are limitations for ALL the CNC's in the "budget" category, wouldn't you say? How would you compare the OX vs the X-carve for example? I think that's what we're interested in. Or, are you aware of a budget CNC that doesn't have these limitation and can take deeper passes for faster results?

I think perhaps the question on many of our minds is: What CNC (assembled/kit) for less than ($1000, $1500, $2000, etc) delivered is the "best", with cost including any highly recommended options. We all operate under a budget so it always needs to be total cost.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by gof

Ok, but what you're referring to are limitations for ALL the CNC's in the "budget" category, wouldn't you say? How would you compare the OX vs the X-carve for example? I think that's what we're interested in. Or, are you aware of a budget CNC that doesn't have these limitation and can take deeper passes for faster results?

I think perhaps the question on many of our minds is: What CNC (assembled/kit) for less than ($1000, $1500, $2000, etc) delivered is the "best", with cost including any highly recommended options. We all operate under a budget so it always needs to be total cost.

I'm putting together a "3040 CNC" from parts. All in all it costs about the same as an XCarve and has proper linear bearings and ball screws. Aluminium milling capability is far better than a XCarve or an OX IMO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIaObhW0Xg

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by mman1506

I'm putting together a "3040 CNC" from parts. All in all it costs about the same as an XCarve and has proper linear bearings and ball screws. Aluminium milling capability is far better than a XCarve or an OX IMO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIaObhW0Xg

I would not recommend that specific type of linear guide (at least it appears to be a floating shaft press-fit on both ends like this one, if it is the fully-supported type, disregard this comment) since a friend had a CNC router based on them. They are not supported across the travel and they vibrate during any movement. This would definitely cause surface finish issues and inaccuracy. His was a 2' x 4' router, however. On the smaller 3040, this may be a negligible deflection. I would recommend linear recirculating ball bearings (HiWin/THK style) on hardened steel guides for any extrusion based system as they will make the structure much more rigid.

Originally Posted by gof

Ok, but what you're referring to are limitations for ALL the CNC's in the "budget" category, wouldn't you say? How would you compare the OX vs the X-carve for example? I think that's what we're interested in. Or, are you aware of a budget CNC that doesn't have these limitation and can take deeper passes for faster results?

I think perhaps the question on many of our minds is: What CNC (assembled/kit) for less than ($1000, $1500, $2000, etc) delivered is the "best", with cost including any highly recommended options. We all operate under a budget so it always needs to be total cost.

As I have no direct experience with both, I can only go off of what others have posted. Reviews are going to be good and bad for both. My personal opinion is to buy whichever one you can afford and get into CNC routing with. It will add so many capabilities to the team and will help inspire students and mentors to be creative with their designs. You can always build parts for a larger or better router from the smaller router.

Do you have any capability to make accurate parts yourself (milling machine)? A router is a fairly straightforward build and you can get a lot of machine for $1000 if you design the components yourself.

If I was to choose buying one I would probably consider the OpenBuilds over the X-Carve. The next step up I would consider the CNCRouterParts kit.