GRIZZLY TOOLS

[SciBorg Dave]

We are in the process of building a high school robotics lab(rookie team 5920). We are looking at buying a lathe, mill, band saw and some other tools for the lab. My question to the FIRST community are there any teams using Grizzly products and how do you like them? The price is of some importance.

[Greg Needel]

My team has some grizzly tools and I have used many in the past. They are for sure the budget brand of industrial equipment.

Here are a couple of things to think about when buying any tool.

* there is no brand of tool where every tool is great. You need to look at each tool independently based on your needs and use case.

*The only thing that a brand will tell you is about the support for the products that you will receive.

*If you are not experienced or an expert in using the tools you are considering (specifically for mills, lathes, etc) you need to consult with someone who knows more than you do. Chiefdelphi is a good place for this, but a local resource might be better.

*Used equipment is both a blessing and curse - you can find some very high quality good deals on older used equipment. You also won't get much (or any) of a guarantee with any of it so if it does break you are probably on your own to figure it out (another reason to find a local expert)

*tooling can cost as much or more than the machine - get good tooling, it makes a huge difference. There are some ways to get cheap tooling, like calling machine shops and asking for donations or any re-grinds they are going to get rid of.

* Since you mentioned rookie team, I recommend you get through this season before you make any decisions. The lead time to get equipment up and running is not insignificant and you have a big challenge coming up in a week. It is not the time to try and setup and learn a new tool.


Good luck! We are all here to help, and I am sure some others will chime in with their opinions also.


Greg

[MichaelBick]

In addition to what Greg said, Grizzly doesn't have great support if you break one of their tools. That said, you will probably have the same issue with many used machines.

[sanddrag]

We have two grizzly bandsaws, one vertical and one horizontal. We're happy enough with them, but as the previous poster mentioned, the particular model is important. Which ones are you looking at and what is your budget?

Originally Posted by MichaelBick

In addition to what Greg said, Grizzly doesn't have great support if you break one of their tools.

Are you speaking from a first-hand experience trying to get support from them? I've read many accounts on the contrary.

[GeeTwo]

Wow. A rookie team already considering both a lathe and a mill. We're entering year five, and aren't seriously considering either. I'm not familiar with Grizzly, but as far as bandsaws and drill presses are considered, I can say don't bother with the cheap ones. I expect that this is even more true for lathes and mills.

To borrow a phrase from my days at the stable, FRC tools are "rode hard and put up wet". Within a year in the hands of high schoolers, our Ryobi tabletop band saw was significantly less functional (not to mention precise) than our DeWalt "portaband", and our Ryobi tabletop drill press (same model as I have at the house and do reasonably nice things with) wasn't worthy to serve aboard the Millennium Falcon. Both are in the junk yard. I don't know if there is a sweet spot or where it is, but low end power tools are definitely not it.

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

To borrow a phrase from my days at the stable, FRC tools are "rode hard and put up wet". Within a year in the hands of high schoolers, our Ryobi tabletop band saw was significantly less functional (not to mention precise) than our DeWalt "portaband", and our Ryobi tabletop drill press (same model as I have at the house and do reasonably nice things with) wasn't worthy to serve aboard the Millennium Falcon. Both are in the junk yard. I don't know if there is a sweet spot or where it is, but low end power tools are definitely not it.

Reminds me of my other pastime, which is volunteering with a local summer camp. Similar in many ways. People tend to buy or donate cheap things for camp because, well, we're a charity and have little money. But I've quickly realized that cheap stuff just doesn't hold up. I coined a word for it -- stuff gets "campified". I donated a Canadian Tire drill press (same factory as Ryobi) to camp once that had been lightly used in my own garage. I don't think it even lasted the summer, now the chuck wobbles and falls off. I replaced it with a brand new one, and someone managed to rip off the power cord.

2706 is in its rookie year as a new community based team (e.g. no high school shop to call home). We're going to get by with a chop saw, a drill press and hand tools. We'll be working out of a storage cage at a local sports complex, next to a cage full of volleyballs. I'd love for us to have a lathe or mill eventually, if we could only figure out where to put it!

[SciBorg Dave]

The 4 major tools the team is look at.
G9742 Band saw
G0621x Vertical band saw
G4000 Lathe
G0759 Mill
We have been give a large grant to change a home economics room to a robotics lab. The grant will need to provide for a complete redesign. That being said we could spend $10-$15,000 on needed equipment. We will be taking out 3 of the 4 stoves in the room so 220 volts is available. We hope to complete the project for the beginning of the 2016 school year.
We are a high school of 84 students in eastern Washington state. We are a FFA team well supported by the high school administration and teachers. Grizzly has a location in Washington state and we like supporting local. We would like them to become a supporter of FIRST.
We also understand our rookie season starts 1 week from today. We have been installing a supply of Vex pro build materials. So our most pressing need would be the band saw.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Wow. A rookie team already considering both a lathe and a mill. We're entering year five, and aren't seriously considering either. I'm not familiar with Grizzly, but as far as bandsaws and drill presses are considered, I can say don't bother with the cheap ones. I expect that this is even more true for lathes and mills.

To borrow a phrase from my days at the stable, FRC tools are "rode hard and put up wet". Within a year in the hands of high schoolers, our Ryobi tabletop band saw was significantly less functional (not to mention precise) than our DeWalt "portaband", and our Ryobi tabletop drill press (same model as I have at the house and do reasonably nice things with) wasn't worthy to serve aboard the Millennium Falcon. Both are in the junk yard. I don't know if there is a sweet spot or where it is, but low end power tools are definitely not it.

The Seig-style mills and lathes are in wide use and are very popular with hobbyists. They are capable of holding good tolerances.
As a rookie team I would want a drill press, bandsaw, sander, and the Vexpro gussets. But once the year is up having a mill and lathe available is extremely handy, and opens up whole new worlds of parts.
We have a couple cheap drill presses (Craftsman), and I have to say they're not bad. The runout on the mini one that's been around several years is definitely under 1/64" (haven't measured it, haven't needed to). As long as new students are supervised while running it and don't do anything too demanding (large holesaws in steel?) I think even a cheap drill press can work for a while.
That being said I agree that bandsaws are not good to get cheap. We have not had luck with cheap bandsaws at all. Whenever possible I try to just use the massive portamatic bandsaw we have in the woodshop.

EDIT: I would recommend against the G4000 however. It's $1000 and I think you'll very rarely make use of the full 9x19 size. Something like a 7x12 or 7x16 would be good to save money for a 5c collet chuck and collets to hold hex stock accurately. The mill looks good (yay DROs!) but with a week to go until build begins it might be prudent to wait on buying until the end of build, when you can learn to use it properly.

[Chief Hedgehog]

I will have to agree with everything that Greg Needel posted. Bargain-brand tools are hard to gauge.

I would like to ask these questions:
Is there a reason that you are purchasing the equipment now?
Is the school putting in the lab and are they providing the funds?
Is there a sponsor that is aiding in these purchases?
Can you get by at least one season before purchasing?
Does your team already have the hand tools necessary for a FRC season?

The reason that I ask all of these questions is that your team is about to go on a ride with a VERY STEEP learning curve. Purchasing equipment 'just to have it' is not a good reason to purchase. Spend the time to figure out what you need - not what you want.

If your school is putting up all the money and it needs to be done this fiscal year - be sure to spend the money wisely. A good set of hand tools is the first order of business. And if it is to be stored in a school setting, be certain you have ways to lock up these items - they seem to go 'missing' in the off-season if you do not. Again, before purchasing major pieces of machinery (even on the school's budget) I would be certain that these are the right pieces for your team.

Utilize your sponsors and mentors - We are now entering our 4th season and we have gone this long without these (mill and lathe) tools. In fact, this is the first season that we will have both of these machines in our shop. Our mill is a very old Bridgeport (1920's era) that one of our sponsors donated in 2014 and then one of the mentors spent most of the season last year getting it up to par. Although we were able to get the mill in our lab with no cost - we have spent over $1500 on tooling so that we can properly use it. Now it is a finely tuned machine that the students can learn on and out some very impressive parts.

We also gained a new sponsor this year that put up half of the funds for a new lathe. We are expecting the lathe to arrive within the week. If we had to rely on our own funding, it would have put us in a bind come build season (or we would have had to go with a cheaper model). Again, we put up a good chunk of money to outfit this machine with the proper tooling (just north of $400).

If you are needing to purchase now, buyer beware on Grizzly - I am sure you have done your research and found that some of their products are very spotty in the reviews.

Good Luck to your team this year!

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Are you speaking from a first-hand experience trying to get support from them? I've read many accounts on the contrary.

Our g4003g lathe was down for around 6 months while we were waiting for a replacement gib. Luckily it was not during build season. No issues though with our g0704 mill, but it gets a lot less use now that we have a full size knee mill.

[snoman]

We just ordered this http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-X-...-and-DRO/G0796 will let you know how it goes.

[SciBorg Dave]

We are also buying a TIG weld any ideas out there ?
This is funded by the Palouse high school FFA alumni, a separate grant.
Our hope is for our small community (1050 population) to be a destination robot lab for our small area and other future teams.

[SciBorg Dave]

Originally Posted by snoman

We just ordered this http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-X-...-and-DRO/G0796 will let you know how it goes.

Your input will be a great help Thanks

[asid61]

Originally Posted by SciBorg Dave

We are also buying a TIG weld any ideas out there ?
This is funded by the Palouse high school FFA alumni, a separate grant.
Our hope is for our small community (1050 population) to be a destination robot lab for our small area and other future teams.

Before you go any further I think laying out the experience level of the team could really help. Again remember that there is a week until Build begins, and if you depend on having welding/milling/turning available during the six weeks and something doesn't pan out you'll be left with a disappointing robot.

[sanddrag]

We had the G9742 horizontal bandsaw in service for about 3 years before retiring it. The real limiting factor was the 3/8 blade. We installed a good starret blade and flood coolant, which made it almost like a whole new saw, and after a while we got it dialed in to cut dead nuts straight. But, it was a bit of a project to get it cutting well. Over its life, we cut A LOT of thick bar stock on the thing, but we did break A LOT of blades (even good ones), caught the motor on fire (yes, with actual flames), and broke the power switch. We swapped out the motor with a much better one from Harbor Freight, and replaced the power switch, and the saw still cuts fine but it has quite a vibration and it feels like the worm gear is just about completely worn out. Also, the G9742 auto-shutoff at the bottom of the cut never worked properly. Impossible to adjust into a working position. We upgraded to the G9743 and haven't looked back. It's a night and day difference. And other than the new one splashing coolant on the floor, we really like it.

On the vertical bandsaw you selected, are you sure you have 3-phase power in the room? Most washers/dryers are single phase.

For welding, we've been very happy with our Miller Diversion 165, though it can be a little under powered if welding 1/4" aluminum plate on a cold day. It will handle 1/8 all day long without a problem. I've done 1/4 steel on it too and while it works, it's a little slow. The 180 is available for a little more dough. We have the Elite Classic series helmets which have worked well. We've had good experiences purchasing through Cyberweld.

Don't underestimate the need for and expense of things like workbenches, tables, toolboxes, computers, chairs, bits, blades, consumables etc, etc. It all can really add up. The Same Club Seville Classics workbench is a good value. We own 10 of them. On toolboxes, the Harbor Freight 44" 13-drawer is hands down the best quality and value.