What makes FRC a sport?

[Hgree56]

I saw this post start to get more activity.

At my high school, our team has pushed for us to be considered a sport like the soccer teams, football team, or swim team. We considered these three teams to be our most hard working teams here. We compared ourselves to all three teams in multiple ways but my personal favorite was over all time each student spends for that sport during a 6 week period (6 weeks=goals).

The boy's soccer team (which I was a member of) had 3 to 5 practices a week plus games. We estimated roughly 12 to 14 hours spent with the soccer team. Football was around 16 to 18. Swim was about 25 hours a week.
Our schedule had our robotics students spending close to 21 hours a week over 6 weeks with the team.

After presenting this to our school's Principle, he got some of the "clubs" to now be considered "Sports of the Mind." Robotics led the way. Speech, Science Olympiad, and Spell Bowl are now all also Sports of the Mind here.

We aren't a sport, but we aren't a club. We're a team that builds robots and competes against other schools across our state and the world. That's all that matters to us.

[Drakxii]

It's a team based athletic* competition so it's a sport in my mind.

*Human players, transporting the bot and fixing/building the bot.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by MikLast

There are much better channels with wider audiences now. lets think bigger.

I somewhat agree with this... The problem with getting airtime is looking at what that channel is NOT playing during that time as a result. Channels With wider audiences would probably see too much of FIRST as a ratings hit against their normal programming. The nice thing about ESPN in late April is that there isn't too much going on - March Madness is over, Baseball hasn't started yet, football is a distant dream, hockey is finished. It makes for some available airtime.

However, with the inclusion of Disney Imagineering helping with the game design this year, I could see a broadcast happening on Disney affiliates, and there are a lot of them! How cool would it be to have:

FLL Jr on the Disney Junior or ABC Kids channel
FLL on the Disney Channel
FTC on ABC Family
FRC on ABC or ESPN

All channels owned by Disney... And all with target audiences in the same age range our programs target. Building a close relationship with Disney could let us take over the airwaves for a day or two during champs! I'd love to see it happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Paul Copioli]

Some of you have asked, "why does it matter?".

While it doesn't matter to me as I participate in both traditional sports (swimming & golf) and robotics (FRC and VEX IQ as a coach), it does matter to some State organizations.

In Texas, for example, UIL has two distinct classifications: UIL Athletics and UIL Academics. FRC is currently considered an Academic UIL activity and not a sport, as some may think.

Some of us believe it should be part of UIL Athletics, but the State disagreed.

This is but one example. There could be more.

[pmangels17]

Originally Posted by MikLast

There are much better channels with wider audiences now. lets think bigger.

I have no actual idea of what ESPN's motives were to broadcast Nationals (yes, Nationals) back in the day, but I'd wager it has to do with:
1. ESPN still trying to solidify its position as a major network contender
2. ESPN trying to expand to a variety of programming
3. Disney owning ESPN, and showing a massive event at EPCOT (a Disney Theme Park), as a way to promote themselves as well as FIRST


We should push for more TV coverage for FIRST, that is not an unrealistic goal. However, we need to somehow make it as marketable and profitable for companies as possible to show us on TV in order for that to happen. Battlebots proved that a show about violent robots can hold people's attention for weeks at a time, we should be able to keep the public excited for all of Championship Weekend. As long as the GDC keeps churning out games that are exciting to watch, challenging to design for and play, and easy to follow (games like Rebound Rumble and Ultimate Ascent), these goals are within reach. I think the medieval theming and Team Standards this year will help tie everything in together for more people as well, which is another step towards marketability.

[pmangels17]

I should add also that if we can get FIRST to be on TV, that might go a long way towards convincing schools that FRC is indeed a sport, or at least something worth as much investment and promotion as sports get, which I think is the main reason we want FRC to be seen as a sport in the first place.

[JoshWilson]

FRC is a sport, because we put in just as much time and energy, if not more, than everyone else, plus it's exciting to watch and participate in.
I think it would be great if we could get FRC on public television. It would help convince more schools to have teams, would let more people become interested in it, and would promote STEM, which is one of FIRST's goals.
People liked Battlebots, and if the GDC continues to make games exciting and interesting, I think it could really attract an audience. Just as long as there isn't any more games like recycle rush, because that wasn't to exciting.

The only problem I see however,is deciding which events to show, unless they do it by region.

Also, shoutout to gegozi for re-awaking the thread

[marshall]

Originally Posted by AustinLoPiccolo

I was talking with a friend about sports today and when I brought up how FRC is a sport, he disagreed. He explained that because we aren't required to be athletic and endure physical punishement like in lacrosse, football, soccer and other physical enduring sports that you can't say FRC is a sport. This argument is coming from someone who has never experienced the FRC and FIRST environment. I want to know from you what makes FRC and/or FIRST a sport.

To say that all those who play sports must be "athletic and endure physical punishement" completely dismisses the role of teamwork that is so fundamental in most sports, particularly ours. It is also denigrating to the role of coaches, strategists, and engineers.

It takes teams of engineers to make bikes out of carbon fiber for The Tour de France. The best teams have customized equipment that has spent many hours in wind tunnels at great expense and if anyone doesn't think those engineers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their work then they've never laid up carbon fiber.

How about the time spent engineering Football helmets so they can absorb impact and the players don't crush their spines? How about the never-ending playbooks that are meticulously crafted by coaches for soccer and hockey teams? Think these don't matter in sport and that a team is entirely dependent on just the players to carry them? Think again. Championship winning teams combine all elements into an all-inclusive package.

There is also a link between mental stress and physical health. Ask any FRC drive team that has played in eliminations/playoffs about the link between the two. It is very real. Being hyped up on adrenaline is one thing but knowing how to control your actions while in that zone is a whole different ball game. Formula 1 and NASCAR drivers put themselves through physical training regimens that rival those of triathlon athletes (and some of them even compete in those too!). FRC drive teams would not be amiss in having their drivers healthy and fit as well and there are teams that do this.

My personal heroes of sport aren't the guys most likely to be captured on film and in the media stories written about the events. They are the coaches, the strategists, the engineers behind the scenes making sure that every piece is lined up to perfection and that the players know their parts and are so well rehearsed that the act of competition, despite being special in every way, is just another day at the office.

[JoshWilson]

Originally Posted by marshall

To say that all those who play sports must be "athletic and endure physical punishement" completely dismisses the role of teamwork that is so fundamental in most sports, particularly ours. It is also denigrating to the role of coaches, strategists, and engineers.

It takes teams of engineers to make bikes out of carbon fiber for The Tour de France. The best teams have customized equipment that has spent many hours in wind tunnels at great expense and if anyone doesn't think those engineers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their work then they've never laid up carbon fiber.

How about the time spent engineering Football helmets so they can absorb impact and the players don't crush their spines? How about the never-ending playbooks that are meticulously crafted by coaches for soccer and hockey teams? Think these don't matter in sport and that a team is entirely dependent on just the players to carry them? Think again. Championship winning teams combine all elements into an all-inclusive package.

There is also a link between mental stress and physical health. Ask any FRC drive team that has played in eliminations/playoffs about the link between the two. It is very real. Being hyped up on adrenaline is one thing but knowing how to control your actions while in that zone is a whole different ball game. Formula 1 and NASCAR drivers put themselves through physical training regimens that rival those of triathlon athletes (and some of them even compete in those too!). FRC drive teams would not be amiss in having their drivers healthy and fit as well and there are teams that do this.

My personal heroes of sport aren't the guys most likely to be captured on film and in the media stories written about the events. They are the coaches, the strategists, the engineers behind the scenes making sure that every piece is lined up to perfection and that the players know their parts and are so well rehearsed that the act of competition, despite being special in every way, is just another day at the office.

Now THAT is what I call a good argument!

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by marshall

My personal heroes of sport aren't the guys most likely to be captured on film and in the media stories written about the events. They are the coaches, the strategists, the engineers behind the scenes making sure that every piece is lined up to perfection and that the players know their parts and are so well rehearsed that the act of competition, despite being special in every way, is just another day at the office.

As a long time coach for Martial Arts and someone who takes all of my studies and techniques for coaching and apply them to FRC students as well as fighters, I appreciate this post greatly.

[logank013]

I personally don't consider robotics a sport. I do think that FRC is very borderline to a sport but most members on a team can not be considered athletes.

I have one problem that I can't see past when considering robotics a sport. When you look at this definition brought up in an earlier post, I totally agree with everything he said when breaking down the definition.

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition Defines Sport as:


Lets break it down piece by piece:
an individual or group activity I don't think anyone will argue this.
pursued for exercise or pleasure I don't know about your team, but our team has fun, and derives pleasure from seeing the robot compete.
often involving the testing of physical capabilities and taking the form of a competitive game The basic structure of FIRST competitions is a competitive game. Further, it is a test of physical capabilities - of the robot, not the student.

It's a question of how you define the competitor in the activity. If your friend has any doubts that your robot is a fierce competitor that requires all the athleticism and endurance he thinks of in sports, first show him a video of a hard-hitting match. Then tell him he can stand in for one of the robots, and you'll have paramedics standing by to reattach his severed limbs when he's done

But there is something drastically missing when thinking like this. When I compare robotics to football, they are so super similar. Let me break it down. In Football, You have a set of rules that tend to change in some sort of way from year to year. Essentially, you have a team of coaches and general managers who are trying to figure out what they can do to their team to figure out how to play the game the best. They scout out players and see who they can pick up or see who they can draft to make their team great. Each player has some set of abilities that gets them noticed and that is how the general manager chooses who they want. Then, their team is pretty much set in stone and they can make little tweeks to their team throughout the season to try to get the perfect team for playoffs.

Now let's look at FRC. You see, we are like the coaches. We get the game manual or the set of rules that we have to follow and we have to break them down to see what abilities our robots need in order to make our robot great. Don't you see now that each little part of our robot is like a player in the game of football. Then, we have scouts. The scouts jobs are to look out for robots who have certain abilities that they need in order to make the alliance great. Each robot that is drafted is made up of several different little players. One robot may be the offense. The second robot may be the defense. The third robot may be the special robot or the special teams robot.

So now the real question comes down to this. Would you ever think that the general manager is playing the game of football? Of course not! He isn't on the field during those 60 minutes of regulation. Now of course, he does impact the team. So do the coaches. They impact the team which is why they are so important to the game of football. That is why they get payed a similar salary as football players. Do you understand what I'm saying? We are the coaches, managers, and scouts of a football team. Our robot is the team. As the general managers of our robot, we choose what we want our robot to do but once we design and build it (Just like actual football coaches and GMs do!), our team or our robot does all the work. The only "athletes" I'd consider in FRC are those on the drive team. They work with the robot and they have to have split second analysis's to make a decision. Those 3 or 4 student are the ones they deserve the title of a sport. Those 3 or 4 are the ones that should be getting the sport letter in high school. Should the coaches of our sports team get sport letters? No! that's why they don't. So if most of the robotics team are coaches and general managers, why should we expect to get sports letters?

My Final analysis is that FRC is built very much like a sport. Most of the arguments brought up about FRC being a sport is the fact that many team member want to be considered athletes. Are we athletes? Should we be getting the same letter on our jackets as Football players? I say no to both of those. I think that robotics has 3 or 4 athletes per team. Those 3 or 4 people are those who are the drive team. The rest of us in FRC are like the Coaches, General Managers, and Scouts of NFL teams. With that said, we are a structured club. Not to be considered athletes of a sport. We are super important to FRC but once our robots are deigned, our robots are the ones who actually play the sport. Our pit team is like the doctors and medical staff in the locker room. Our Scouting team is the set of scouts and GM who are trying to figure out who to draft to make our team better. Our Drive team members are a mixture of the Coaches, Coordinators, and football players who are the ones who make the tough calls and last second decisions when playing. That is my analysis of comparing robotics to football.

The real question that should be asked isn't "Is FRC a sport?". It should be "Do you consider yourself an athlete?" and I think anyone who isn't on the drive team isn't really an athlete when at a robotics event. Opinion's? Thanks

[Zaque]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I would say FIRST is more of a sport of the mind than an actual sport. I have been very active in both physical sports(soccer, football, basketball, etc.) and sports of the mind(FIRST, poker, chess, etc.).

While I love FIRST it doesn't compare to a physical sport in the type of adrenaline you get when competing. Now I'm not saying you/I don't get pumped up and excited and nervous and all that comes with competing but its not the same as working up a sweat and knocking down a game winning 3 pointer or something like that.

FIRST is a sport its just a different form of a sport.

Have you ever been behind the glass? Not to be rude, just asking to try and understand your perspective. Every time I go behind the glass, I get more of an adrenaline rush than from anything I have ever done on my high school sports teams. Especially in the eliminations, when the outcome can effect the rest of your season, it really kicks in. Scoring the game-winning point (or missing it by this much) is worth even more to me than anything from a "traditional" sport, even if I don't work up a sweat.

[bobjones227]

Originally Posted by logank013

The real question that should be asked isn't "Is FRC a sport?". It should be "Do you consider yourself an athlete?" and I think anyone who isn't on the drive team isn't really an athlete when at a robotics event. Opinion's? Thanks

As a pit scouter and match strategy person, I view FRC as being a sport. There's more to a sport than the players/athletes (Drive Team). People in the stands are often taking data on competing teams, I'm going to other teams and making a strategy for the upcoming matches, and the pit crew helps repair the robot. Everyone is part of the team. I know the definition may not specifically state something like FRC as a "sport", but it definitely requires a great deal of teamwork and dedication, much like any other sport.

I hope this didn't come off as overly aggressive.

[matthewdenny]

If you are among the large group of people that consider motorsports to be sports, then robotics is very similar.

Both involve a group of people that build a machine that is driven by someone in their group in a competition against others.

In both cases both the design and manufacturing of your machine are critical as well as the gameday driving. The only difference I see is that we dont drive our machines while sitting in them, and that seems to be not significant.

[logank013]

Originally Posted by bobjones227

As a pit scouter and match strategy person, I view FRC as being a sport. There's more to a sport than the players/athletes (Drive Team). People in the stands are often taking data on competing teams, I'm going to other teams and making a strategy for the upcoming matches, and the pit crew helps repair the robot. Everyone is part of the team. I know the definition may not specifically state something like FRC as a "sport", but it definitely requires a great deal of teamwork and dedication, much like any other sport.

I hope this didn't come off as overly aggressive.

It wasn't aggressive. So do you consider yourself an athlete. I can accept if people call FRC a sport, but I won't consider anyone besides the drive team as athletes. And I'm in a similar situation to you as I'm basically the team's Head strategist.