Cheating in FRC

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by The_ShamWOW88

Unfortunately it's true.

I guide our Chairman's team and I set it from the outset with the students. I'm just there to help them put everything together. They write the paper, they make the video, they prepare and practice their presentation.

I still believe that the majority of teams do the same.

I think we are talking about different things.

I was talking about teams making false claims in their chairmans submissions.

It sounds like you are talking about mentors working on submissions/presentations.

I like mentors to be a part of every step of the process.

It sounds like you do not.

Mentors working with students on awards is not cheating.

Teams falsifying information on awards is cheating.

-Mike

[MamaSpoldi]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

I think we are talking about different things.

I was talking about teams making false claims in their chairmans submissions.

It sounds like you are talking about mentors working on submissions/presentations.

I like mentors to be a part of every step of the process.

It sounds like you do not.

Mentors working with students on awards is not cheating.

Teams falsifying information on awards is cheating.

-Mike

I agree that the role of a mentor includes reviewing and making suggestions for improvements for award submissions, just like they would in relation to building the robot or writing software. But a mentor that is suggesting that breaking the rules (by reporting incorrect information... or by working outside the build season) is OK because the kids are still "inspired" is seriously confused. I don't think that word means what you think that word means. Receiving accolades for cheating is not inspirational... it is sad and disappointing. It is also NOT Gracioius Professionalism.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by MamaSpoldi

I agree that the role of a mentor includes reviewing and making suggestions for improvements for award submissions, just like they would in relation to building the robot or writing software. But a mentor that is suggesting that breaking the rules (by reporting incorrect information... or by working outside the build season) is OK because the kids are still "inspired" is seriously confused. I don't think that word means what you think that word means. Receiving accolades for cheating is not inspirational... it is sad and disappointing. It is also NOT Gracioius Professionalism.

Totally agree.

If a mentor suggest breaking rules is acceptable, they are not promoting the values of FIRST, nor are they setting a common-sense "good example" for our next generation of bright young minds.

I think a lot of adults are decently rational people. I honestly believe the exact scenario of a "mentor that is suggesting breaking the rules is OK because the kids are inspired" is not a common one.

Your opinion may vary.

I just know too many decent-to-outright-incredible adults in FRC to believe that blatant cheating is an even semi-common occurrence in this program.

-Mike

[Dinokaiz2]

OP of this CD thread here-

Sorry I wasn't online to read some of the suggestions about things I should've done differently in bringing this issue to light. I've been out all day since I posted this (out at robotics, actually), but now that I'm here, I'd like to answer a few questions.

First of all, I didn't PM the OP over Reddit before posting this. I apologize, it was absolutely an error on my part. I'm going to PM him ASAP because him being blind-sided by this would be terrible.

In spite of this, I don't think I'll be taking down this thread. I didn't mean at all for it to be a public shaming. I meant it to bring this to light, because I really think it's my duty as a fellow FIRSTer to do everything in my power to remedy this situation. It's a tragedy, but IMO, if I stand by, I'm as much in the wrong as the cheaters.

The main reason for this post is to get anyone who knows anything about this situation to please contact a FIRST representative.

When I posted this thread, I was truly concerned for the well-being of this team's members. As it was said earlier in this thread, what's worse than the cheating is the suppression of members who disagree with the mentor's philosophies. I understood when I made this thread that it could hurt the member of their team who posted on Reddit, and that it was possible that it was the OP's job to deal with this, not mine, so I shouldn't butt in. But I weighed that with the suppressive behavior of the mentors and the fact that the OP seemed genuinely concerned. I definitely don't think that the OP was simply unaware of the rules, despite him/her being a rookie. Contributing to that feeling is the fact that someone posted a list of allowed actions that could be misconstrued as cheating, and the OP didn't respond, instead sticking to his/her claims. I could be wrong, but I think it sufficient evidence.

If the OP sees this and is discontent with what I've done, I'm truly sorry for any trouble I've caused you, but this issue needs to stay in the light. If the only person it impacted was you, I would be in the wrong and would absolutely take down this thread. However, it seems that, because you're a "powerhouse team" that often wins regionals, your team's cheating is impacting other teams from your region and teams you meet at World Championships.

In other words, I don't believe that my actions can hurt more than they can help. This thread wont be coming down, at least, not because of me.


UPDATE: I was unable to PM the OP on Reddit because not only was the post deleted, but the account he posted it with as well. I am currently left with no ways within my power to directly contact the OP, anonymous or not. I'm desperately sorry if you've suffered consequences for my actions, OP, but I felt it my duty to do something about it.

[jkoritzinsky]

OP used a throwaway account on Reddit, so the chances of being able to let him/her know were already pretty low.

[D.gimon]

Hello Everyone,

Intriguing thread.

FRC prepares High School kids for the real world (and I believe that all aspects of the literal program do that)......."Coopertition, Gracious Professionalism, Safety Regimen, Honour System (bagging), etc.

Truly great ideals to be teaching our kids (and reminding ourselves of).

So FRC is, in essence, a microcosm of the world around us (Rules, Guidelines, Philosophies).

However, the world is comprised of a vast multitude of personalities with the same number of opinions and interpretations of the Rules, Guidelines, and Philosophies.

The ultimate goals of these opinions and interpretations vary widely (some hold on to the literal intentions while others do not).

One only has to attend any of the events and look closely at the various robots to see what I mean.

FRC (Rules, Guidelines, Philosophies) mirrors the real world (Laws, Constitutions, Charters of Rights and Freedoms, etc).

Have a close look at the real world and honestly come to your own conclusions regarding this thread.

As much as a level playing field is stressed in FRC, "It ain't there!", and it's no fault of FIRST. Not every team has the same funding or mentor resources. Not every team will embrace the literal meanings of the FIRST principles (once again, look at what's going on in the real world).

On the bright side, we pride ourselves (regardless of our regional finishes) on being one of the many teams that abides by the intended interpretations of the FIRST principles and continue to churn out (as many of you do) honest, hard working, safety oriented, and proud graduates of this worthwhile program who will make a difference in the real world.

Sincerely,
DG

[The_ShamWOW88]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

I think we are talking about different things.

I was talking about teams making false claims in their chairmans submissions.

It sounds like you are talking about mentors working on submissions/presentations.

I like mentors to be a part of every step of the process.

It sounds like you do not.

Mentors working with students on awards is not cheating.

Teams falsifying information on awards is cheating.

-Mike

Easy friend, we're on the same side.

I am in favor of mentoring, I stated guiding did I not?

I must not have been clear enough in stating that I do believe too much "hands on" mentoring can lead to problems where students feel like they aren't contributing. Not that this happens all the time.

I do mentor. I do assist my students where needed. I do not tell them what to do.

I apologize for not understanding your point correctly. Yes, falsifying content is a problem.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by The_ShamWOW88

Easy friend, we're on the same side.

I am in favor of mentoring, I stated guiding did I not?

I must not have been clear enough in stating that I do believe too much "hands on" mentoring can lead to problems where students feel like they aren't contributing. Not that this happens all the time.

I do mentor. I do assist my students where needed. I do not tell them what to do.

I apologize for not understanding your point correctly. Yes, falsifying content is a problem.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, it sounded to me like you believed mentors being involved in "writing the paper" or "making the video" was against the rules.

Thanks for clarifying.

-Mike