Secret Passage

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by EricH

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy. Capiche?

Well I predict that first will have a change to rule G21 - add an exception from G11,

I also have a question I'd like to hear your answer to:
You are in my passage. You won't move. I plan on using my passage. I go in and touch you. I get flagged for a G11 for "attempting to draw a foul on you." (even though i was simply trying to use a field element designed for my alliance) But, because you were in my passage, you knew that I could only be fouled for attempting to foul you by running into you. Thus you are also fouled for a G11. Does that make sense? I think not.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

Well I predict that first will have a change to rule G21 - add an exception from G11,

I also have a question I'd like to hear your answer to:
You are in my passage. You won't move. I plan on using my passage. I go in and touch you. I get flagged for a G11 for "attempting to draw a foul on you." (even though i was simply trying to use a field element designed for my alliance) But, because you were in my passage, you knew that I could only be fouled for attempting to foul you by running into you. Thus you are also fouled for a G11. Does that make sense? I think not.

I predict that there won't be.

If the GDC wanted to keep the passage clear, they would have stated that it couldn't be entered at all. They took great pains to clarify that opposing robots COULD be in there.

To answer your question, you don't get flagged for a G11 the first time. End discussion.

Now, if you repeatedly start hitting me, instead of going to one of your defenses, you might get flagged by a G11.

To really confuse you: I've had an issue and can't move. I Estop in the Passage. Who gets a G11 if you start making contact with me?

[FerMtz]

Can you interact with the boulder while in the secret pasage?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by FerMtz

Can you interact with the boulder while in the secret pasage?

There are no rules saying you can't.

[KosmicKhaos]

Originally Posted by EricH

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy. Capiche?

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy.

If a robot is blocking your secret passage and you contact them to get them out of the way, you are not strategically causing them to get a foul but rather trying to get to your secret passage and get them out of the way. You are simply trying to play the game, not draw a penalty.

No matter who initiates the contact, it is still contact, and I believe that the robot defending the secret passage will get a penalty for contacting in the secret passage.

As long as the robot trying to get to the secret passage is not repeatedly hitting the robot trying to intentionally draw fouls against the defending robot, they will not receive a G11, but the defending robot will receive a G21.

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by FerMtz

Can you interact with the boulder while in the secret pasage?

G27 A ROBOT may not transfer BOULDERS from the NEUTRAL ZONE to the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE.
Violation: TECH FOUL per BOULDER
Only rule I found relating boulder control and secret passage.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by KosmicKhaos

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy.

If a robot is blocking your secret passage and you contact them to get them out of the way, you are not strategically causing them to get a foul but rather trying to get to your secret passage and get them out of the way. You are simply trying to play the game, not draw a penalty.

No matter who initiates the contact, it is still contact, and I believe that the robot defending the secret passage will get a penalty for contacting in the secret passage.

As long as the robot trying to get to the secret passage is not repeatedly hitting the robot trying to intentionally draw fouls against the defending robot, they will not receive a G11, but the defending robot will receive a contact penalty.

Bingo

The rule basically provides a protected zone, otherwise why have a secret passage at all.

A team can go into it but at their own risk.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by KosmicKhaos

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy.

If a robot is blocking your secret passage and you contact them to get them out of the way, you are not strategically causing them to get a foul but rather trying to get to your secret passage and get them out of the way. You are simply trying to play the game, not draw a penalty.

No matter who initiates the contact it is still contact and I believe that the robot defending the secret passage will get a penalty for contacting in the secret passage.

As long as the robot trying to get to the secret passage is not repeatedly hitting the robot trying to intentionally draw fouls, they will not receive a G11, but the defending robot will receive a Contact penalty.

Now here's the question. Contact--in this context--generally is attributed to whoever's doing the moving to initiate.

So: I hop into your Secret Passage to get a boulder, you're nowhere around. You come piling in to get a different boulder and hit me as I'm trying to get out, making no move towards you. You initiated the contact, but without strategy to do so.

Who gets the penalty if one is given and why? Hint: It's not you. G11 only applies to strategies. And if it's me, I'll be wondering why I get a penalty when you contact me.



My personal opinion on G11 is that the GDC didn't learn from 2011 and 2012 when similar rules were in play. Concept = good. Implementation--Frank, we'll need some clarification in TU#1, please.

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by EricH

Now here's the question. Contact--in this context--generally is attributed to whoever's doing the moving to initiate.

So: I hop into your Secret Passage to get a boulder, you're nowhere around. You come piling in to get a different boulder and hit me as I'm trying to get out, making no move towards you. You initiated the contact, but without strategy to do so.

Who gets the penalty if one is given and why? Hint: It's not you. G11 only applies to strategies. And if it's me, I'll be wondering why I get a penalty when you contact me.



My personal opinion on G11 is that the GDC didn't learn from 2011 and 2012 when similar rules were in play. Concept = good. Implementation--Frank, we'll need some clarification in TU#1, please.

If the rule was revised so that instead of being:
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL
It was:
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not CONFLICT opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL
Everything would be cleared up.

Conflict - verb (used without object)
1. to come into collision or disagreement; be contradictory, at variance, or in opposition; clash:

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

If the rule was revised so that instead of being:
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL
It was:
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not CONFLICT opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL
Everything would be cleared up.

Conflict - verb (used without object)
1. to come into collision or disagreement; be contradictory, at variance, or in opposition; clash:

Or "may not initiate contact with". That would probably clear it up even more.

The way I see it, there are three ways to clear this up.

1) Close the secret passage to any opposing robot.
2) Change G11.
3) Change G21 to clarify that you can't play D while in there (by any number of ways--though I don't think that using conflict as a verb will clear things up, seeing as that's an uncommon usage.)

[EdWard3637]

Originally Posted by EricH

Or "may not initiate contact with". That would probably clear it up even more.

The way I see it, there are three ways to clear this up.

1) Close the secret passage to any opposing robot.
2) Change G11.
3) Change G21 to clarify that you can't play D while in there (by any number of ways--though I don't think that using conflict as a verb will clear things up, seeing as that's an uncommon usage.)

They could also implement something similar to overdrive, where if the opposing robot contacts you while you're in their secret passage, it acts as a signal to pass, and you are forced to drive out of their secret passage within a certain grace period.
Personally I don't want to see the passage closed to the opposing robot, as being able to take the boulders in bound by the opposing alliance and keeping them in the courtyard makes building a shooting robot way more viable

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

Who gets the penalty if one is given and why? Hint: It's not you. G11 only applies to strategies. And if it's me, I'll be wondering why I get a penalty when you contact me.

You get the penalty because you are not supposed to be there.

Note: I think you need to be "fully in" the secret passage. So, if any part of the bot is outside the secret passage, then you are ok.

[ToddF]

They could clarify things by introducing the concept of "right-of-way". In other words, the owner of the secret passage has right of way in it. A red robot may be in the blue secret passage if no blue robot is present. If there is robot to robot contact in the blue secret passage, the red robot receives the penalties because the blue robot has the right of way in their own secret passage.

<My opinion, not clear from the rules> Likewise, as the owner of the castle, a blue robot has right of way in their own courtyard. If they decide to park in front of one of the batters, to prevent a red robot from challenging the tower in that location, they have the right to do so, and should not be cited for a G28 violation if a red robot runs into them. If, however, the blue robot runs into a red robot during the last 20 seconds, they may be cited for G28.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by rich2202

You get the penalty because you are not supposed to be there.

How do you figure? There's nothing in the rules that says you can't go into your opponent's SECRET PASSAGE. (There is a rule about only entering from the COURTYARD.)

The question is what the word contact in the rule means - make contact with, initiate contact with, come into contact with? That needs to be defined yet.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

How do you figure? There's nothing in the rules that says you can't go into your opponent's SECRET PASSAGE. (There is a rule about only entering from the COURTYARD.)

While there is no rule that prevents a bot from entering the opponent's SP from the opponent's courtyard, it is clear to me from the rules that the intent of the SP is to be "secret" from the opposing team. So, the robot is not supposed to be there.

All the rules (contact with other bots, using it to avoid defenses, etc.) are consistent with that interpretation.