Boulder shenanigans

[IronicDeadBird]

Is each team in charge of knowing how many boulders are in the opposing castle?

Situation:
If the opposing team has 5 boulders in the castle and I am aware of that and my team at that instance can score two boulders should I score one and wait until the opposing team introduces one onto the field or can our team score both?

G34 No more than six (6) BOULDERS may remain in a CASTLE at any time. If the BOULDER count ever
exceeds six (6), excess BOULDERS must be introduced to the FIELD immediately.
Violation: FOUL per excess BOULDER

In the situation given if two boulders are scored the opposing side now has 7 boulders which is 1 foul because our team scored. Of Course per G11

G11 Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in
an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.
Violation: FOUL. If egregious or repeated, YELLOW CARD

Is it solely one teams burden to keep less then 6 boulders in the castle, or is it the responsibility of both teams.

[alopex_rex]

As I read G34, each team is in charge of making sure their castle doesn't have more than 6 boulders in it. If there's 5 boulders in our castle, and you shoot in 2 more, than our human player has to immediately release at least one of them to the field. We only incur a foul if we let the 7 boulders remain. We have a grace period to get rid of a boulder before we get a foul.

I don't think anyone could violate rule G11 by filling the opponent's castle with boulders. That's one of the primary ways of scoring; classifying it as a "strategy aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule" would just be perverse.

[GKrotkov]

The key word in G11 is "solely" (as I read it, of course). Is your strategy of scoring a boulder aimed at making them take a penalty? Perhaps, they can't really know. However, they certainly can see that scoring a boulder would have a benefit for you other than your opponents taking a penalty, and thus, it cannot be the sole reason that you are taking that action.

[thatnameistaken]

In addition to what's been said above, the way I read G34, it's okay to have 7+ boulders so long as the human players immediately pick up the excess and introduce them to the field; as such, you can't really 'force' the foul to get a G11.

The rule might still be flawed, though; check out G33:

G33 BOULDERS may only be introduced to the FIELD
A. during TELEOP,
B. by a DRIVER or HUMAN PLAYER, and
C. through one of the holes in the HUMAN PLAYER STATION.
Violation: FOUL per BOULDER

(emphasis mine)

Imagine: the red alliance elects to give all 3 of their auto boulders to their human players, starting the match with 6 boulders in their castle. Then, once auto starts, the blue alliance spy bot scores a boulder in the first few seconds. Now what? The red alliance has 7 boulders; they can't legally introduce one to the field until teleop, nor can they legally keep them all. Are they fouled? Is G11 called on the blue alliance?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by thatnameistaken

Imagine: the red alliance elects to give all 3 of their auto boulders to their human players, starting the match with 6 boulders in their castle. Then, once auto starts, the blue alliance spy bot scores a boulder in the first few seconds. Now what? The red alliance has 7 boulders; they can't legally introduce one to the field until teleop, nor can they legally keep them all. Are they fouled? Is G11 called on the blue alliance?

Yikes. It can't be a G11, because it was a strategy to score points, not cause a foul.

Perhaps the "immediately" grace period extends until after Teleop begins. A question for Q&A.

[thatnameistaken]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Yikes. It can't be a G11, because it was a strategy to score points, not cause a foul.

Perhaps the "immediately" grace period extends until after Teleop begins. A question for Q&A.

Agreed, and that interpretation of 'immediately' is how I expect the GDC to respond.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by thatnameistaken

Agreed, and that interpretation of immediately is how I expect the GDC to respond.

Maybe if we get lucky they will just say chute door.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Yikes. It can't be a G11, because it was a strategy to score points, not cause a foul.

Perhaps the "immediately" grace period extends until after Teleop begins. A question for Q&A.

I would think so too... as if you interpret it the other way, whatver the human player did they'd get a foul. Be it for breaking the starting line or not purging boulders in time. Still I agree, Q&A should be the ones to say such, so that it gets clarified in the rules.