Secret Passage

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by rich2202

While there is no rule that prevents a bot from entering the opponent's SP from the opponent's courtyard, it is clear to me from the rules that the intent of the SP is to be "secret" from the opposing team. So, the robot is not supposed to be there.

All the rules (contact with other bots, using it to avoid defenses, etc.) are consistent with that interpretation.

A robot is allowed in the opposing alliance's secret passage - There is no rule that prevents this. But, by statement of rule G21, A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
This means that your own alliance gets priority in your alliance's secret passage. if a robot is touching your secret passage's carpet, and you touch them, they are fouled, because this contact breaks rule G21.

The best way to think about your space in an opposing alliance's secret passage is as a privilege, not a right - you'll be fouled for overstepping your bounds.

[alecmuller]

Can anyone point to the rule that SPECIFICALLY says your alliance's secret passage is adjacent to YOUR castle?

This one (top) diagram makes it confusing by showing a blue flag next to a red secret passage (which doesn't match either the game video, other diagrams, or the field CAD which all show red next to red and blue next to blue).

[JoshWilson]

Originally Posted by EdWard3637

They could also implement something similar to overdrive, where if the opposing robot contacts you while you're in their secret passage, it acts as a signal to pass, and you are forced to drive out of their secret passage within a certain grace period.
Personally I don't want to see the passage closed to the opposing robot, as being able to take the boulders in bound by the opposing alliance and keeping them in the courtyard makes building a shooting robot way more viable

I like this idea, as it allows for just a clarification, instead of having to change the rules. Hopefully that's what the GDC decides to do, or already has and just needs to specify.

[NullException33]

We are having the same probably deciphering the field. This error has kept us from completing the design of our robot and establishing a strategy can someone help?

[alecmuller]

We're plowing ahead assuming the red secret passage is next to the red castle & drivers stations (which makes more sense from a game-play standpoint). I'm thinking that top image represented an end-of-game scenario after both the towers were captured - but they didn't properly label it.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by EricH

Or "may not initiate contact with". That would probably clear it up even more.

The way I see it, there are three ways to clear this up.

1) Close the secret passage to any opposing robot.
2) Change G11.
3) Change G21 to clarify that you can't play D while in there (by any number of ways--though I don't think that using conflict as a verb will clear things up, seeing as that's an uncommon usage.)

This cannot be done. It creates a chokehold where you pile up the game pieces in the secret passage and the opponent cannot get to them to score.

[cbf]

Originally Posted by alecmuller

Can anyone point to the rule that SPECIFICALLY says your alliance's secret passage is adjacent to YOUR castle?

This one (top) diagram makes it confusing by showing a blue flag next to a red secret passage (which doesn't match either the game video, other diagrams, or the field CAD which all show red next to red and blue next to blue).

Good catch.

I'm pretty sure the straight-down view (i.e. the top one) is wrong. That angle-down view looks correct, and corresponds to the game reveal and field-walkthrough videos (except the opening of the field-walkthrough, which uses the bad top-down view) -- and frankly, makes more sense.

This is a pretty serious bug, and I think is causing much of the confusion in this thread. Most of the field map pictures in the game manual are straight-down and thus wrong.

So how do we officially report this to First?

[alectronic]

I think the flag you're seeing is the one that is "down". I.e. You're seeing the blue flag because it's "down" and the red one would be "up" (which is why you can't see it in a top view). In that case, all the photos are right.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by cbf

So how do we officially report this to First?

The Q&A system

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by alectronic

I think the flag you're seeing is the one that is "down". I.e. You're seeing the blue flag because it's "down" and the red one would be "up" (which is why you can't see it in a top view). In that case, all the photos are right.

QFT. The best explanation I've read.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by cjl2625

How about if you parked right in front of the chute (I forget the official name), and every time a boulder was introduced into the field, just fire it right into the high goal from your position.
Obviously sounds like this shouldn't be allowed, but what rules would it violate?

There is one way around G39 that I can think of that is sorta a gray area: Somehow have a ball feeder that can fit under the low bar (from the opponent's courtyard towards the neutral zone) just enough to push open the flap but no so much as to be touching the carpet of the neutral zone. As you would also be in contact with the outer works, G40 would also be fulfilled. You'd need to also have a good human player who could bowl boulders straight yet powerful enough to consistently get the boulders to roll over the berm and across the neutral zone (presumably doable as per the field tour). The only downside is you would be very vulnerable to a defender parking in the neutral zone to block the shot.

But yes, it is, for now, doable.

(sorta like 469 in 2010, yet like trolling in 2012, risky gray area).

[ajsmith]

If anyone still has a problem visualizing it, I mocked this up:

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

This means that your own alliance gets priority in your alliance's secret passage. if a robot is touching your secret passage's carpet, and you touch them, they are fouled, because this contact breaks rule G21.

The best way to think about your space in an opposing alliance's secret passage is as a privilege, not a right - you'll be fouled for overstepping your bounds.

Except that if you touch them and there's no other reason to touch them (like going to load up), G11 applies and you get the foul. They have every right to be there, but they cannot make contact with another robot or exit to the Neutral Zone. You have every right to be there, as well, but you can go into the Neutral Zone.

Again, I think that "contact"--when it is being used as a verb, as it is here--generally refers to "initiating contact". If I call you on the phone, are you contacting me? No. I'm contacting you, or getting in contact with you.

I would expect a change to "touching" or "regardless of who initiates contact" depending on what the GDC actually intended here. Either that or there are going to be some questions in Q&A, or some explanations from Head Refs who'd rather not have those discussions because they're busy trying to explain the foul for interfering with crossing a Defense...

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

Except that if you touch them and there's no other reason to touch them (like going to load up), G11 applies and you get the foul.

The easy reason to touch an offensive robot in the SP is to push them out of the way so you can get to boulders being inbounded.

IMHO, very hard for a defensive bot to get a G11 foul in the SP. There are a lot of non-G11 reasons to be moving in the SP zone.

Worst case, the Ref doesn't call any foul (like the contact happened in the courtyard.

An interesting possibility is if the offensive robot is both in the SP and the Outerworks. The defending bot can't touch an offensive bot in the Outworks, and the offensive bot can't touch a defensive bot in the SP.

[Fields]

Originally Posted by EricH

You're not in the Courtyard. G39 says you get a tech foul per boulder.

The rule is not used quite right here.
The manual says launching is putting the ball in the air.

This does not prohibit you from using an over sized hockey stick to keep the balls on your opponents side of the field. Crossing other boundaries is quite clear that the hockey stick would not be allowed, but it is absent here.

As such this WOULD provide nearly a choke point as you can quickly knock balls into play but their ONE defender would have to take each ball ONE at a time across at least to the neutral zone.

I believe the aim of the contact foul rule (though clarification would help) is to prohibit a squatter from doing just that, but still let them take that risk.