Secret Passage

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by EricH

*grin* Forgot about that one, and I've noticed the GDC has been unusually good at closing the obvious loopholes for this one. Any bets on how TU#1 is going to fix this situation, or will some Q&A pestering be required for TU#2 to address it?

I suspect that it will be made clear that an attacking robot touching a defending robot in its secret passage will always receive a foul no matter which robot initiates contact.

That leaves attackers free to go in and steal boulders but woe be unto him who gets caught by the castle defenders.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DareDad

I suspect that it will be made clear that an attacking robot touching a defending robot in its secret passage will always receive a foul no matter which robot initiates contact.

That leaves attackers free to go in and steal boulders but woe be unto him who gets caught by the castle defenders.

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

My personal preference would be that Red gets one bump where nobody gets a penalty, after which if Blue doesn't back out, it's a blockading foul on Blue, and if Blue initiates contact it's an automatic penalty.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by EricH

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

My personal preference would be that Red gets one bump where nobody gets a penalty, after which if Blue doesn't back out, it's a blockading foul on Blue, and if Blue initiates contact it's an automatic penalty.

The way I see it, the secret passage belongs to the defender. Any action that prevents the free movement of a defender (your red team) up or down the passage is a foul on blue since red has the absolute right to have a robot anywhere in the Secret Passage.

That said, if the defenders had 2 robots in the secret passage defending boulders that would be a clear violation of G25 B.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DareDad

That said, if the defenders had 2 robots in the secret passage defending boulders that would be a clear violation of G25 B.

I don't necessarily agree on that one, mind you--I'd consider it situational. For example, 3 robots all attempting to acquire boulders in there would probably be legit--but if one of them moved to block a 4th, then it probably wouldn't be.


I've got a feeling that ref training this year is going to take a while. *gulp*

[TachyonicTalker]

So this reminds me of 2012 (Rebound Rumble) with how the Alley worked. In Rebound Rumble balls we're fed by human players into field through the Alley, much like the secret passages this year. There was a rule that that stated you could not contact your opponents in their already, however it was much clearer than this year's rule:

G28: Robots may not touch an opponent Robot in contact with its Key, Alley, or Bridge.
Violation: Foul; Technical-Foul for purposeful, consequential contact.

and it had a blue box that specified:

This rule applied at all times, no matter who initiates the contact, see G44

G44 being :

G44: Generally, a rule violation by an Alliance that was directly caused by actions of the opposing Alliance will not be
penalized. Rule [G28] is an exception to this rule.

In practice it was basically that you could be in your opponent's alley, but if they went in there you better get out as soon as possible because if they touched you, you would get a penalty.


Now a previous year's game rule has no precedence on this year's game, but seeing as that how the GDC has ran the game before, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they do this year as well.

But the fact that the GDC didn't specifically do that this year, might also mean they had something else in mind for this year's game.

In any case this year's rules needs clarification on that point, and I'd just wait for the Q&A as this will probably be answered and clarified early (maybe even with a post from Frank about it).

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The way I see it, the secret passage belongs to the defender. Any action that prevents the free movement of a defender (your red team) up or down the passage is a foul on blue since red has the absolute right to have a robot anywhere in the Secret Passage.

At this point you are simply inventing rules that do not exist. There is nothing in the rules that would prevent an attacking robot from remaining in a Secret Passage, as long as it does not initiate contact with a defending robot.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by bduddy

At this point you are simply inventing rules that do not exist. There is nothing in the rules that would prevent an attacking robot from remaining in a Secret Passage, as long as it does not initiate contact with a defending robot.

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL

That says may not contact, not may not initiate contact.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by DareDad

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL

That says may not contact, not may not initiate contact.

If the other robot initiates the contact, then it is violating G11:

Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of
FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in
an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.

Thus, there would be no G21 penalty.

[Doug Frisk]

If you were right, the attacker could simply park a robot in front of the player station to prevent the defender robot from getting boulders. As long as they're parked a foot from the wall, the defending human player can still enter boulders onto the field so the attacker is not forcing a foul.

I'm sure it will be clarified in a Q&A but the defending robot always has a legitimate reason to be traversing the secret passage. The attacking robot is either there attempting to steal a boulder or blocking free access to the defender or both.

From a gameplay perspective it makes sense that the attacker must get out of the way of the defender.

I think the best you can expect to see is that if the defender initiates contact the attacking robot must immediately make way or suffer a foul. Otherwise attackers will be parking in there and watching for a 5 count by the ref.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DareDad

From a gameplay perspective it makes sense that the attacker must get out of the way of the defender.

I think the best you can expect to see is that if the defender initiates contact the attacking robot must immediately make way or suffer a foul. Otherwise attackers will be parking in there and watching for a 5 count by the ref.

I think that this would be probably what's next up. The GDC really doesn't have a whole lot of options here:

--exclude the passage contact rule from G11 entirely (won't happen, as now you've really got a can of worms)
--Clarify that the passage contact rule applies either only to initiating or regardless of initiating
--Add a new rule that if contacted, the attacker needs to be moving out right away (like the "bump-to-pass" in '08)

Personally, I'd go for the third one, but I don't think that'll make life any easier on the refs.

[alecmuller]

For anyone still following this, the 1st rule update clarified it (caveat - I paraphased parts of it, so look it up yourself to be sure):

Section 3.4.3 General Rules

G11 Blue Box added:

G11 does not apply for strategies consistent with standard gameplay, e.g. a TEAM obtaining a BOULDER from their SECRET PASSAGE, . . . .

Examples include:

A. . . . .

B. . . . .

C. A Red robot is parked completely within the Blue Secret Passage. A Blue robot, attempting to reach the Blue Brattice (the human player station where you put boulders back into play), makes contact with the Red Robot. The Red Robot receives a G21 penalty (making contact inside secret passage). There are no violations of G11 (intentionally causing an opposing side to get a foul) because the Blue robot was trying to access their Brattice and not solely trying to cause the Red robot to violate G21.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The way I see it, the secret passage belongs to the defender. Any action that prevents the free movement of a defender (your red team) up or down the passage is a foul on blue since red has the absolute right to have a robot anywhere in the Secret Passage.

You may see it that way, but until you can cite a rule to convince me, I don't see it that way. And guess who wears the yellow and black shirt and gets to make the decision?

Originally Posted by DareDad

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL

That says may not contact, not may not initiate contact.

And that is the crux of this thread and others - what did the GDC mean by "contact"? Is it active or passive?

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

A strict interpretation of: G26 (only 1 robot may contact it's own Courtyard) and G21 (robot may not contact defending robot) sort of level the playing field.

An offensive robot ins the SP has to stay away from defending robots.

If there are 3 defending robots in the SP waiting to get a boulder, then only one robot at a time can get a boulder, and use the courtyard to go around the other 2 defenders.

Note: If you design your robot right, you can be "over" the SP by about 2+feet, without being in contact with the carpet of the SP for purposes of rule G21.