Secret Passage

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Fields

The rule is not used quite right here.
The manual says launching is putting the ball in the air.

This does not prohibit you from using an over sized hockey stick to keep the balls on your opponents side of the field. Crossing other boundaries is quite clear that the hockey stick would not be allowed, but it is absent here.

As such this WOULD provide nearly a choke point as you can quickly knock balls into play but their ONE defender would have to take each ball ONE at a time across at least to the neutral zone.

I believe the aim of the contact foul rule (though clarification would help) is to prohibit a squatter from doing just that, but still let them take that risk.

Next time, read the original question. For parking in front of the chute and launching, as originally stated, it's a tech foul per boulder. The Secret Passage is not part of the Courtyard. Clear?

Now, to go to YOUR scenario, do you REALLY think that you can block ALL the entry chutes with a 15" long stick and still be parked outside the Secret Passage the whole time? Nope. You can block one Embrasure and maybe the Brattice. You'll have to enter the Passage to block the other. Also, you run the risk of being ruled as controlling >1 Boulder, AKA a Foul. (A smart HP will be very good at avoiding you, too.)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DareDad

This cannot be done. It creates a chokehold where you pile up the game pieces in the secret passage and the opponent cannot get to them to score.

*grin* Forgot about that one, and I've noticed the GDC has been unusually good at closing the obvious loopholes for this one. Any bets on how TU#1 is going to fix this situation, or will some Q&A pestering be required for TU#2 to address it?

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by EricH

*grin* Forgot about that one, and I've noticed the GDC has been unusually good at closing the obvious loopholes for this one. Any bets on how TU#1 is going to fix this situation, or will some Q&A pestering be required for TU#2 to address it?

I suspect that it will be made clear that an attacking robot touching a defending robot in its secret passage will always receive a foul no matter which robot initiates contact.

That leaves attackers free to go in and steal boulders but woe be unto him who gets caught by the castle defenders.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DareDad

I suspect that it will be made clear that an attacking robot touching a defending robot in its secret passage will always receive a foul no matter which robot initiates contact.

That leaves attackers free to go in and steal boulders but woe be unto him who gets caught by the castle defenders.

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

My personal preference would be that Red gets one bump where nobody gets a penalty, after which if Blue doesn't back out, it's a blockading foul on Blue, and if Blue initiates contact it's an automatic penalty.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by EricH

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

My personal preference would be that Red gets one bump where nobody gets a penalty, after which if Blue doesn't back out, it's a blockading foul on Blue, and if Blue initiates contact it's an automatic penalty.

The way I see it, the secret passage belongs to the defender. Any action that prevents the free movement of a defender (your red team) up or down the passage is a foul on blue since red has the absolute right to have a robot anywhere in the Secret Passage.

That said, if the defenders had 2 robots in the secret passage defending boulders that would be a clear violation of G25 B.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DareDad

That said, if the defenders had 2 robots in the secret passage defending boulders that would be a clear violation of G25 B.

I don't necessarily agree on that one, mind you--I'd consider it situational. For example, 3 robots all attempting to acquire boulders in there would probably be legit--but if one of them moved to block a 4th, then it probably wouldn't be.


I've got a feeling that ref training this year is going to take a while. *gulp*

[TachyonicTalker]

So this reminds me of 2012 (Rebound Rumble) with how the Alley worked. In Rebound Rumble balls we're fed by human players into field through the Alley, much like the secret passages this year. There was a rule that that stated you could not contact your opponents in their already, however it was much clearer than this year's rule:

G28: Robots may not touch an opponent Robot in contact with its Key, Alley, or Bridge.
Violation: Foul; Technical-Foul for purposeful, consequential contact.

and it had a blue box that specified:

This rule applied at all times, no matter who initiates the contact, see G44

G44 being :

G44: Generally, a rule violation by an Alliance that was directly caused by actions of the opposing Alliance will not be
penalized. Rule [G28] is an exception to this rule.

In practice it was basically that you could be in your opponent's alley, but if they went in there you better get out as soon as possible because if they touched you, you would get a penalty.


Now a previous year's game rule has no precedence on this year's game, but seeing as that how the GDC has ran the game before, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they do this year as well.

But the fact that the GDC didn't specifically do that this year, might also mean they had something else in mind for this year's game.

In any case this year's rules needs clarification on that point, and I'd just wait for the Q&A as this will probably be answered and clarified early (maybe even with a post from Frank about it).

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

A strict interpretation of: G26 (only 1 robot may contact it's own Courtyard) and G21 (robot may not contact defending robot) sort of level the playing field.

An offensive robot ins the SP has to stay away from defending robots.

If there are 3 defending robots in the SP waiting to get a boulder, then only one robot at a time can get a boulder, and use the courtyard to go around the other 2 defenders.

Note: If you design your robot right, you can be "over" the SP by about 2+feet, without being in contact with the carpet of the SP for purposes of rule G21.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by MikLast

one more question, does the yes on entering your side go with entering apply to the enemy secret passage?

Your flags on the Towers are backwards on that drawing (unless those towers have been captured already). Check the videos (both the animation & the Field Videos and the Official Field Drawings Field Layout Plan first sheet. Blue Flag, Blue Standards, Blue Drivers Station/Castle Lights, Blue Secret Passage, Outer/Defense, etc. All on one end, and all red on the other.

The only thing that can/does change is a Captured Tower will flip flag color. But using that drawing is very confusing the issue further concerning G20 (among others).

There appears to be some errors in figures (drawings), in the GAME RULES not yet corrected, and you copied one of those drawings. I'm sure corrections will eventually be made.

Members of Citrus Circuits have good reason to be under stress concerning the confusion (ok, besides being a defending World Champ team attempting a repeat year).

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by NullException33

We are having the same probably deciphering the field. This error has kept us from completing the design of our robot and establishing a strategy can someone help?

Go watch the videos (including the animation and the official field element vids & the official PLAN DRAWING the 2 are correct.....ALL BLUE on 1 end/ALL RED on the other....Until a single or double TOWER CAPTURE then the Captured Towers flags change only. It will sometimes have 2 red flagged Towers, 2 blue, 1 red/1 blue. But the field ends won't change.

They will always start BLUE/RED.

It is highly confusing and will be until after the first FIRST UPDATES.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by ajsmith

If anyone still has a problem visualizing it, I mocked this up:

Again, your Tower Flags are the wrong color! (Unless both Towers have been Captured already). So sorry.

[Fields]

Originally Posted by EricH

Next time, read the original question. For parking in front of the chute and launching, as originally stated, it's a tech foul per boulder. The Secret Passage is not part of the Courtyard. Clear?

Now, to go to YOUR scenario, do you REALLY think that you can block ALL the entry chutes with a 15" long stick and still be parked outside the Secret Passage the whole time? Nope. You can block one Embrasure and maybe the Brattice. You'll have to enter the Passage to block the other. Also, you run the risk of being ruled as controlling >1 Boulder, AKA a Foul. (A smart HP will be very good at avoiding you, too.)

This discussion has gone farther than the original question with reading the past 5 pages. Yes, launching is illegal still, but pushing the boulder over the 1" divider is not.

We can have hockey stick that is actually much bigger than 15". The frame perimeter max is 120". even with a square frame that is 30" per side. 15" stick/net/pusher/etc. allowed at every side and you're now 60" wide. The passage is 53.5" wide.

Neglecting the contact rules for a moment (since there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus yet). The only thing you would have to watch out for is accidentally controlling more than one boulder.

This is not a true choke hold since you can't take the shots yourself, but until the contact rules are fully understood, you can keep the boulders in play at your opponents side of the field.

[DredPiratRobrts]

If you go into the opposing teams secret passage, can you redirect boulders that the human players put back in without having to go out of the secret passage?

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The way I see it, the secret passage belongs to the defender. Any action that prevents the free movement of a defender (your red team) up or down the passage is a foul on blue since red has the absolute right to have a robot anywhere in the Secret Passage.

At this point you are simply inventing rules that do not exist. There is nothing in the rules that would prevent an attacking robot from remaining in a Secret Passage, as long as it does not initiate contact with a defending robot.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by bduddy

At this point you are simply inventing rules that do not exist. There is nothing in the rules that would prevent an attacking robot from remaining in a Secret Passage, as long as it does not initiate contact with a defending robot.

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL

That says may not contact, not may not initiate contact.