Sharing information - not a good idea?

[bduddy]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

[Purpose]

That is a fair concern, but I think it's also important to note that information on what your robot can and cannot cross can be useful when its time to pick teams as well. High seeded teams will likely pick robots that complement them by crossing defenses that may give them issue.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by bduddy

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

I don't think the answers to pit scouting questions have ever been particularly well correlated with robot ability. It seems the way psychology works your best match somehow becomes what you remember as average. Folks don't do it to be devious, they just honestly don't know how well their robot actually performs.

What happens on the field is the truth, everything else is subject to be Best Available Data.

[mockingod]

It's hard to decide sometimes because of what you said, they might be your opponent, and you don't want to give them the answer, because they might engineer a solution better than you! Right?

Just think of it differently. I think of it as if they're going to be my ALLIANCE members in the future. What happens if in the match, they go into the secret passage from the neutral zone holding a boulder? And they asked that same question and you could've answered? You guys get a penalty for it!

Not only can you think of it that way, you should just imagine they're on your team as well. The entire community ideally is friends with each other. Almost everyone is willing to help one another, because the ultimate goal of robotics is to learn and pass that knowledge down. Think of it from a moral standpoint.

Helping people and answering their questions is also a good way to meet others and make friends with other teams.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by mockingod

It's hard to decide sometimes because of what you said, they might be your opponent, and you don't want to give them the answer, because they might engineer a solution better than you! Right?

Just think of it differently. I think of it as if they're going to be my ALLIANCE members in the future. What happens if in the match, they go into the secret passage from the neutral zone holding a boulder? And they asked that same question and you could've answered? You guys get a penalty for it!

Not only can you think of it that way, you should just imagine they're on your team as well. The entire community ideally is friends with each other. Almost everyone is willing to help one another, because the ultimate goal of robotics is to learn and pass that knowledge down. Think of it from a moral standpoint.

Helping people and answering their questions is also a good way to meet others and make friends with other teams.

I wasn't talking about not helping other teams accomplish something, which I don't expect to happen this year. I was talking about not telling other teams what your robot can do, because other teams might use that information against you directly.

[Ichlieberoboter]

Even if they can use it somewhat against you during qualifications, it's going to be important during alliance selections. Our team is planning on making info on what our robot can do readily available so that we have a better chance of getting picked when alliance selections comes around.

[rich2202]

Maybe the strategy is: On Day 1 of qualifications, tell scouting teams you will post the information on Day 2.

That way, you get one day of competition with the other teams not knowing. On day 2 interested teams will be able to get the info that may not have been revealed during day 1 of qualifications.

[JoshWilson]

even though you're giving away information, you can ask them the same thing too, which kinda balances things out. Also, withholding information could easily look bad for you and your team's image, but after your first few matches, the team that asked can just watch you, along with everyone else, and get the information anyway.

[bjtheone]

Originally Posted by bduddy

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

This is true every year. It is just that this year has a direct opportunity to use this information against you in a easy and direct way(pick a defence you cannot cross). On the flip side this information can be used to plan game strategy, and alliance partner picking, which may be more important (ie. we can cross A & B and might look for robots capable of C & D, if breaching was part of our game strategy).

We for sure, and I suspect most other teams, scout for information to plan how to play with, and how to play against teams. In the qualification round you are going to play with and against most teams. More importantly in the elimination round unless you are an alliance captain, pit scouting interaction can play significant role in getting selected.

Plus, an examination of you robot will tell a lot about your capabilities anyways.

We always answer questions to the best of our abilities.

[hardcopi]

My guess is that we will end up just being totally up front. Not telling the truth will only help in your first few matches, then the cat will be out of the bag. If you don't tell the truth then besides not being GP it will also make them less likely to pick you if they can't trust you.

Now I might be saying that because it is still early enough in the build season that we are planning on being able to go through any obstacle. I might be singing a significantly different tune come bag day.

[EricLeifermann]

Only question 2826 asks in the pit when it comes to scouting is, "Can I take a picture of your robot?".

Last year we also asked if teams were willing to be cheesecaked but only at champs did we ask that.

Teams are going to tell you what they designed their robot to do not what it actually does. On field performance is all that matters to us. So you might not be willing to say what defenses your robot can cross in the pits but you'll tell me every match you're in anyways.

[philso]

Originally Posted by bduddy

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

I don't feel that this year is any different from previous years. What people are sharing are concepts, not detailed design drawings and code. For example, in 2013, many people emulated the concept of the small-wheel shooter. Some were very successful. Some were not successful.

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Only question 2826 asks in the pit when it comes to scouting is, "Can I take a picture of tour robot?".

Last year we also asked if teams were willing to be cheesecaked but only at champs did we ask that.

Teams are going to tell you what they designed their robot to do not what it actually does. On field performance is all that matters to us. So you might not be willing to say what defenses your robot can cross in the pits but you'll tell me every match you're in anyways.

My older son used to use his commanding presence and asked some teams "what are your robot's weaknesses?" The funny thing is that most of them made an honest effort to answer (maybe not accurately, as Eric notes).

[sclancy1647]

In my personal opinion, it is always helpful to know your own strengths and weaknesses. Especially if your are in a competition with say 2-3 powerhouse teams, they want someone who can complement them or their strategy. I would still be giving out as much information as possible, to not only help others, but to help yourself.

Sean Clancy
Iron Devils Robotics FRC team 1647
Drive Coach and Management team lead

[courtney.john28]

At first glance I had the same thought, because unless you can flawlessly complete all the defenses, your opponents will always choose your weakest defense. But I also remembered last year's litter agreement, which was essentially working together to get a higher score for both alliances. This year I think alliances should work similarly so they can get the 2 ranking points. Because if two teams work together so that they both get the extra two points then the worst point value you can get is 2 rp's and the highest is 4 rp's (assuming the plan goes succesfully)

[alextried]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

I don't think the answers to pit scouting questions have ever been particularly well correlated with robot ability. It seems the way psychology works your best match somehow becomes what you remember as average. Folks don't do it to be devious, they just honestly don't know how well their robot actually performs.

What happens on the field is the truth, everything else is subject to be Best Available Data.

Absolutely. A robot may perform better or worse than the pit/drive team anticipate on the field, and data you personally collect tends to be more accurate than what a team may tell you in the pit (not usually their fault). This is true every year. Personally, I like to speak to every team anyway, whether or not we are in a future match with or against them, because even if we never play together our robots and drive teams may complement each other enough to form a successful alliance in playoffs.