Two Boulder Auto

[MrJohnston]

We spent some time thinking on this and are skeptical as to whether or not even top teams will be able to score both boulders consistently enough to overcome the potential of a penalty.

* Teams trying this will have to have multiple routines prepared and be able to breech several different defenses during auto as there is no guarantee that the "ideal" defense will be set up for you. At higher levels, teams can anticipate that the "wrong" defense will always be in place. In other words, unless you can either easily damage all 8 defenses (not low bar), or drive to your preferred defense without bumping into alliance members, it will be nothing more than a cutesy thing to show off once in a blue moon.

* Even with the "ideal" defensive set up, the potential for the defenses to through you off by an few inches is very, very high. You'll need very good vision-tracking that can quickly re-align the robot.

* Relative to the size of the boulders, the tower windows are small. Accuracy is going to be imperative.

* Because the additional boulders are on the mid-line (which you cannot cross at all), your acquisition devise must be able to take the boulder by grabbing it an inch short of the center. Very possible. However, if the robot should (after crossing a defense, shooting and returning) be off by so much as an inch, the risk of a penalty is very high.

* If you cannot score the second boulder more than half as often as you commit the penalty, it's a losing proposition.

So, it looks like that second boulder during auto is possible -but far more difficult than things like the three-tote auto we did well last year - with much less potential for reward. We decided we were not willing to put forth the amount of time it would likely take to perfect such a stunt... We believe that we can get much more "bang for the buck" by perfecting other attributes.

Will somebody do it? Yup. Will it have warranted the effort to make it work (scoring benefit v. time to develop and implement)? I doubt it. Of course, I am pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong about something every year in FRC....

[BrianAtlanta]

There are two factors that teams have to master for this to happen.

1. Accurate driving. There are several steps with this, so if you will have drive with sensors providing feedback.

2. A highly accurate high goal shooter.

If you build that in your robot, then you can think about it. If you're that good at auto driving and shooting, you might be able to give it a try. If your close success, and are doing really well in matches (read winning with big margins), you might give up 5 points to keep flushing out the bugs since it won't affect your results.

So, build your best bot. If you satisfy the above, give it a shot. BUT, don't let 2 boulder auto drive your design.

Brian

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by SoccerTaco

Hail Fellow. I greet thee!

While I definitely do not expect to see many teams do a 2 boulder auto - it will be extremely hard in 15 seconds - I also don't think it is quite as impossible as you make it out to be to get a boulder off the midline without obtaining a foul. Consider this scenario which I do believe is all perfectly legal.

Robot is placed on the field at the back edge of the auto zone, ~12 inches from the midline, preloaded with 1 boulder.

Auto starts.

Robot sets their boulder down in the auto zone, so they no longer control any boulders.

Robot lowers a roller arm intake mechanism toward midline. The team strategically placed their robot on the field so that the intake will contact the midline boulder without crossing the midline.

In this scenario, the robot has not driven one inch, and they have a boulder off the midline. The rest is obvious - cross defense, shoot, return to auto, collect the boulder that was set down, cross defense a second time, shoot.

I'm not saying this is easy!! But that is mostly because of the time limit, not because of the midline foul risk.

Godspeed on your quest.

- Steve

_______________________
You too Steve,

Now, I envisioned a much different path and method "when I mistakenly thought that circular path through the Secret Passageway was possible and legal" (MY OPINION ONLY UNTIL THERE IS A Q&A & AN UPDATE FROM FIRST/GDC)....Straight through shoot high / or Spybot corner shoot high On the second pass (to get Boulder 2), down the Secret Passageway to the end (half way out into the Neutral Zone-Turn 90 degrees right, drive forward (Parallel to the 6 balls and that Midline), extend out left side about 12" in front of bumper with a plucker that hits the top right 1/3 of the hemisphere of the ball (a few inches away from the Midline tape edge, and draws it to the right on a roll toward the robot path, as you drive slowly by using ball location w/ vision sensing, it rolls right in front of your robot and perfectly in front of your boulder collector into bot, 90 degree turn through the next easily traversable Defense (backing up straight if necessary before the turn), vision target location shooting to closest upper goal after reaching the Courtyard carpet to 11' away. Shoot & Score #2, how much time is left on the clock? Wanna try for 3?

15 seconds is a long time since most will be shooting high from at least 11' from the Tower to reach upper goal. (3 goal openings at 3 different angles, no hot seeking, etc.)

Though I understand now that easy ride is over since the Secret Passageway is out. G20 and proper field drawings view makes a huge difference.

The math still says to try it when you look at risk vs reward. You can foul, & make the upper shot, and still end up net positive 5 points.

Tell me I can buy a Powerball ticket tonight, lose Wednesday night by getting none of the numbers, but I still get half the money Thursday. And I never play that sucker bet & I mean ever (though I'll sit and play poker with anyone, so I'm a gambler. But, lotto isn't gambling, it is a tax on poor people regularly wishing on rainbows)....OK, until it goes over that magic # - 1.3 BILLION w/ a "B". Now that's a NET POSITIVE. (Lose a lil' vs. a chance on a BILLION PLUS-I'm buying now because that risk vs. reward just went huge). BTW, I did not play Saturday when it was $800+ Million$$$$$. Wifey had $2.00 in the office pool though, and they won $2.00....again.

Very worse case scenario: You have 1 down High Goal =10 points in the bag, you attempt 2nd, you miss really bad & go over the line, and run into a robot on the other side of the line (you may or may not have any robots over there at all by that time to hit...Who knows!?)

But, you just suffered the absolute biggest crash in all of FRC Robotics save for the "Backwards line crossing from the get go all the way across the field in Auto because a robot was placed backwards, or code really entered wrong, or motors plugged in backwards", (AND WE HAVE ALL SEEN A FEW OF THOSE OVER THE YEARS).....You still are no better off than taking only a 1 single Boulder Auto shot chance, and simply and sadly missing. Or worse, it goes in hits the chains and bounces out.

Score zero, net zero. You cross the line (foul), but make the shot 1.5 times the score net (3 times the tele value net). But, you make it no fouls and high goal you cash in 2.0 times (but that is also 2 X the tele score X 2 a huge net gain that boulder is. And that extra one in Auto is actually worth the value of (wiping out equal to receiving 2 Tech Fouls as far as Power/Damage to Tower). There are a lot of chances of incurring Tech fouls in this particular game....But the second auto shot isn't 1 of them. (Worse case-2 Regular Fouls net points wise, equal 1 Upper Auto Score).

Tell me another time in this game (FRC), that you can possibly take a large risk, possibly screw up so freaking bad, and pay for it so little? Screw up a lil' and still have a good degree of chance to get a net positive, and or possibly succeed repeatedly, and score double (6~10 matches later it all adds up to real points)....And, it still isn't worth the risk?

Then, I suggest we all start thinking about another game to play as this one is really expensive, if you don't grab the brass ring, at least when the math leans chances net positive toward you, since usually it leans waaaay the other way.

IE: 600/3000 plus chance of going to CMP the day of paying our initial reg. fees, and it all goes downhill from there competition wise (and that is 33% better now than it was just 2 yrs. ago)...But, it is so much fun and it isn't all about the robots, it is about changing lives, and accomplishing the seemingly impossible!

That last comment (about finding another game), wasn't directed toward any person/team directly, nor FIRST, but just an "in general opinion comment." (So please don't anyone take it personally).

Sorry, I'll quit selling and step off the soapbox.....I'm just trying to rally the FRC Kingdom and help make it much louder.

Build Your Champion...Rally Your Kingdom.....But, Let's All Do It Together!

Do it for David Bowie.....RIP (Dooont do doo dut dooont....Put on you red shoes and....dance the blues!)

[JonSnow]

I'd say that level of precision and driving that distance has been shown before.

Not sure anyone is around that still remembers this, but we scored 2 tubes in autonomous in around 12 seconds here back in 2007 (Old camera tech took ~3s to lock on to the target as the rack was moved between matches).

In an offseason match:
910 Double Keeper at ARC

In an offseason practice match:
910 double keeper at marc

Returning very accurately to a known position is easy with wheel encoders as long as you don't slip (the hard part). Considering the best high shooters will probably be able to make a 20 ft shot, they wont even have to drive more than 10 ft (x3) even at a slow 5 ft/s the driving ony takes 6 seconds. 9 s seems like enough time for decelerating, gathering, and shooting two balls.

Now I wont be so bold as to say it will happen all the time, but I think we will see it before the season is out.

[BrianAtlanta]

Originally Posted by JonSnow

Now I wont be so bold as to say it will happen all the time, but I think we will see it before the season is out.

I'd guess that <=5 teams will solve it at Worlds

[cglrcng]

OK, my last post in this thread for now. With all the "not going to happen much or often this year" responses in the thread, I realized something. (Not that I didn't already know it, but I have to let them know it, and address it out loud).

Team 987 HighRollers and a few others, thank you for being only 2+ Hours or so away from us and allowing our around a long time low #, but small rural community combined 3 H.S.'s team to play both with you (not often enough, & not since 2011), and against you (way too often), year in, and year out, and for making us work so bloody hard to even attempt to compete with, and against you (and your friends...Yes pointing at Team 148), annually, at least once. They are the powerhouse team that we play with / against on a regular basis...actually we won LV Reg. with them in 2011 my very first event as a mentor w/ the team, and my youngest Son's First FIRST Reg. Win in 2011 so I'm pretty partial to their competitiveness both local and international...They make our team dig deep and sometimes we actually rise to the occasion these days...and sometimes we reach and fail miserably, but we still reach.

If you had the pleasure last year, of playing w/ (against either of), those 2 teams and their friends (Their 4 bots against Your 3, then you know what I mean), had more than it's outwardly & apparently known and seen disadvantages as the 148/987 drive team(s) relationship was very special & quite evident (2nd Regional they had played together in less than a month (The also won Dallas Reg.), and 987 could (and did), use 148's Robin Tote Stacker Bot just as well as 148's Batman could by then). First ones in RR that I saw that cleared the entire Tote field & backfield except the Totes that were upside down & against the front of the shelf. No litter, no totes just that 1 lonely empty litter container sitting in the backfield all by itself, nearly solid tote walls on the field.

They (987/148/Friends & Robin), together won their 2nd Regional of the year, but our Alliance didn't go down easily, and all 6 teams went to CMP's ours on-Carson 2015 (due to either Awards or Wild Cards)-I got to witness 987's rise at CMP's first hand on Hopper as an Official Scorer (then on to Einstein as 2015 Championship Finalists, & Championship Subdivision Winners).

But our team is better for the challenge they always are, and create.

I personally have only been with the (our), team in 6th year now, but have never seen an auto period, that they (987), have not fully "gone all-in for", and pushed all their chips to the middle of the table and gone for all the auto points possible. They show us that it isn't impossible...Year in, year out. And, we always have to work that much harder, whether playing with them, or playing against them.

But we never miss a chance to go to their home city and play in the Las Vegas Regionals. It's sad that we are not going to be at AZ West Regional again at GC Univ. this year for your 3rd. Regional (LA Reg. LB, CA -Wk. 2, LV, NV Reg.-Wk. 5, & AZ West Reg.-Wk. 6, as we chose the AZ North Regional (Wk. 2) & the Las Vegas Regional (Wk. 5)-The 2 closest to home).

Some of our other friends in AZ that don't get to often go to the LV Reg. can get to have some fun with you for a change at GC Univ. and we'll see you in Week 5.

The AZ, CA, UT, NM, and CO teams among others that I would have to thank that inspire the Lowest # FRC team in the State of AZ in one way or another to produce over the years, would take a whole other posting as we have played with & against almost every team in the State and a many more than a few from outside of it, at 1 time or another over the years.

Some day before I die (and I'm going to stick around until it happens...I'm stubborn as can be), we'll play with, instead of against de Famous Chezy Poofs (254)...We got closer last year by finally both being in Carson this last year (G.W. told me that was extremely rare over the years...usually we were always in a different Div.), but alas we finally were chosen for the same Division & didn't get to play even 1 match with, but did play against each other in the Div. Quarters...Some day I say.

At least it was the 1 match on Carson I did get to see all week. Thanks to all those teams that inspire, and go above and beyond always reaching for the stars. Believe...2 will be doable.

Count on it.

[bduddy]

I'm not sure why you guys are so worried about fouls. A foul is 5 points and successfully scoring the ball in auto is 10 points.

[GaryVoshol]

For those urging to "take the foul", remember that repeated fouling can result in a yellow card for egregious behavior. The yellow card doesn't have to be specifically linked to a rule that specifies a yellow card for the violation.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

For those urging to "take the foul", remember that repeated fouling can result in a yellow card for egregious behavior. The yellow card doesn't have to be specifically linked to a rule that specifies a yellow card for the violation.

I can't think of any scenario in which slightly overlapping the center line to grab a ball during autonomous could ever be considered "egregious" behavior. Maybe that's why I'm not a head referee yet...

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I can't think of any scenario in which slightly overlapping the center line to grab a ball during autonomous could ever be considered "egregious" behavior. Maybe that's why I'm not a head referee yet...

Originally Posted by 5.5.4 YELLOW and RED CARDS

The Head REFEREE may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning, or a RED CARD for DISQUALIFICATION in MATCH, as a result of egregious or repeated ROBOT or Team member behavior at the event. A YELLOW or RED CARD is indicated by the Head REFEREE standing in front of the Team’s PLAYER STATION and holding a YELLOW and/or RED CARD in the air.

See bolded.

[BrianAtlanta]

Question about repeated. In a match or in the competition? Since you're only committing the foul once per match.

Brian

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by BrianAtlanta

Question about repeated. In a match or in the competition? Since you're only committing the foul once per match.

Brian

"Repeated" can be for either. If a team is repeatedly committing a foul in order to score the extra auto point, they can be given the yellow - especially if it is deemed intentional. It's a rule and we should strive to obey it...

Attempting to get the ball without breaking the rule is certainly fine... You just had better be good enough at it that 1) Your success rate overcome any fouls you might commit and 2) You don't get carded.

[pandamonium]

my question is not if a team will do 2 but if a team will do 3...