G11 and G28 Technicalities

[SenorZ]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Says who? In my view that would be a violation of G11 on them.

Please refer to actual rules to support your viewpoints, not a general idea of how you think things should be. Not that you're the only offender...

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL

If red team, in their own secret passage decides to use the secret passage to get to the neutral zone, they have that right. If on the way to the neutral zone they encounter a blue alliance member that is contacting the carpet of the red secret passage, that blue alliance member gets a technical foul.

THAT is the rule. I am sorry if I simplified that to "right-of-way" and caused confusion.

Also, I do understand G11.

[BenGuy]

Originally Posted by SenorZ

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL

Wouldn't it be easy to draw a penalty if you are defending in your own zone. If someone is in your own secret passage and your were defending in your courtyard you could just go hit them and they would get a tech foul right? That seems like an easy way to draw penalties.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by SenorZ

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL

If red team, in their own secret passage decides to use the secret passage to get to the neutral zone, they have that right. If on the way to the neutral zone they encounter a blue alliance member that is contacting the carpet of the red secret passage, that blue alliance member gets a technical foul.

THAT is the rule. I am sorry if I simplified that to "right-of-way" and caused confusion.

Also, I do understand G11.

No, that's not the rule. Please specify how "they have that right" or how the red alliance can contact the blue robot to cause a foul without violating G11.

[AndyBare]

G11 states that Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.
Violation: FOUL. If egregious or repeated, YELLOW CARD

G21 states "a ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS." This is where the right is given to alliance members to have priority in their own secret passage. There is no discussion in the rule of who must engage contact. It simply says that opposing robots may not contact you in your own secret passage.

G11 is a rule that counters strategies, not other rules.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

G11 is a rule that counters strategies, not other rules.

I'm going to make two statements here.

The first is that "Contact", when used as a verb, (very important) carries the implication that X is taking the action to make contact with Y. NOT the other way around.

The second is that a team that uses other rules to rack up penalties on their opponents is in fact using a strategy, and is in violation of G11. If there is a legitimate reason to take an action that causes an opponent to get a foul, then G11 wouldn't apply (most likely). If there is no legitimate reason, G11 applies. Whether or not G11 applies is going to be heavily context-dependent.



By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by EricH

By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.

Even as a verb... "Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object."

Thus, if I contact you, you contact me.

As for G11, it's to stop teams pulling strategies like blocking human player feeding stations and forcing them to have more than 6 balls within their castles.
Another good example would be if you pinned an opposing robot in your secret passage, and kept ramming him into a wall in order to keep fouling him. That would 1. Be bullying, and 2. Be totally illegal.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

Even as a verb... "Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object."

Thus, if I contact you, you contact me.

As for G11, it's to stop teams pulling strategies like blocking human player feeding stations and forcing them to have more than 6 balls within their castles.

We are not talking science, we are talking English. In the English language, if I contact you, you are NOT initiating the contact. If I contact you, you are in contact with me, and I am in contact with you, AFTER I contact you.

Here's the implications given by that:
Contact, initiate contact, make contact: A-> B, if A contacts, initiates contact, or makes contact. Think of it this way: Telemarketer contacts YOU. I don't know when the last time you contacted a telemarketer is...

In contact, contact (n): A <-> B.




I don't think we're in disagreement on G11. Allow me: It's disallowing teams from using the rules to develop a strategy to harm their opponent by causing a rules violation. Thus, it prohibits repeatedly hitting an opponent in your Passage just to rack up the penalties (if you're going to hit them, I suggest pushing them as hard as you can), blocking the various chutes so that boulders cannot be entered, and hitting your opponent in their courtyard for the penalties in the last 20 seconds. BUT, it does not prevent hitting them to get at those boulders, hitting them so you can get to the tower, or sitting just a bit outside the chutes so the boulders collect behind you and are hard but not impossible to get to.

[Chase Haddleton]

Originally Posted by EricH

I'm going to make two statements here.

The first is that "Contact", when used as a verb, (very important) carries the implication that X is taking the action to make contact with Y. NOT the other way around.

The second is that a team that uses other rules to rack up penalties on their opponents is in fact using a strategy, and is in violation of G11. If there is a legitimate reason to take an action that causes an opponent to get a foul, then G11 wouldn't apply (most likely). If there is no legitimate reason, G11 applies. Whether or not G11 applies is going to be heavily context-dependent.



By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by bduddy

No, that's not the rule. Please specify how "they have that right" or how the red alliance can contact the blue robot to cause a foul without violating G11.

Rule update today clarifies this

Section 3.4.6 ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction
■ G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS, regardless of who initiates the contact.

Emphasis added.
http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/d...al/2016/01.pdf