Drawbridge Door Contact Question

[seg9585]

I know for a crossing of the Drawbridge to officially count, a robot in the neutral zone not touching any component of the outer works must cross completely through the obstacle into the Courtyard. Also, it's legal to use teamwork to hold the drawbridge door down for another robot to cross through.

Can anyone say for sure if the following maneuver is regarded as a Drawbridge crossing (before I ask in the GDC):

Cross a different obstacle into the opponent courtyard, drive through the Drawbridge from the back (driving back into the neutral zone, but using an extrusion to hold the door open), then "tapping" the Drawbridge door into the ground (which will instantaneously lose contact with the arm and entire robot), then simply driving back through the Drawbridge obstacle to claim an entry?

I don't see a rule stating that the drawbridge door must be fully closed or a certain amount of time must pass between obstacle contact to declare it to be the start of a Crossing.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by seg9585

Cross a different obstacle into the opponent courtyard, drive through the Drawbridge from the back (driving back into the neutral zone,

so far, so good

but using an extrusion to hold the door open), then "tapping" the Drawbridge door into the ground (which will instantaneously lose contact with the arm and entire robot),

Make sure you comply with "completely in the Neutral Zone", so the part your "tap" needs to be the portion of the door in the neutral zone.

IMHO: If you are going to employ that strategy, then you better warn the Refs in advance so that they will look for it.

[ASD20]

I was also planning on asking a Q and A question about how long you need to not be in contact with the defenses for.

[Kevin Sevcik]

We're thinking about trying this as a self-drawbridge/sally port crossing. I think better than tapping is having your extension out to catch the drawbridge. Drive off it, drawbridge swings up, catch with the extension and push it down to drive back. It's probably a little slower, but it's a lot more obvious you're not touching the drawbridge if it's free-swinging upwards.

But yes, you'll definitely need to warn the refs for the first few matches. Though if this is legal, I think it'll be common enough that they'll just watch for it rountinely.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

This seems hacky. I'd amend the rule/blue box to look something like this:

When a ROBOT passes from their opponent's COURTYARD to the NEUTRAL ZONE through a defense in GROUP C, the spring assisted door must either return to its original position or have its motion impeded by an ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE

[nuclearnerd]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

This seems hacky. I'd amend the rule/blue box to look something like this:

I agree. This would turn the Category C defenses from the hardest to the easiest obstacles - changing the flow of the game completely from the GDC intent (I imagine). That said, I'll be watching the QA closely about this.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

I agree. This would turn the Category C defenses from the hardest to the easiest obstacles - changing the flow of the game completely from the GDC intent (I imagine). That said, I'll be watching the QA closely about this.

Tom's proposal doesn't "turn" anything, it's currently the rules as written (aside from the "tapping" the OP is proposing).

[InspectorGadget1073]

Just a warning--It may be really hard to become entirely in the neutral zone (You cannot be in the volume above the ramp), so please be weary before employing this strategy.

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by InspectorGadget1073

Just a warning--It may be really hard to become entirely in the neutral zone (You cannot be in the volume above the ramp), so please be weary before employing this strategy.

Not sure I read the rules that way. Do you have a reference for that? Here is the definition of the OUTER WORKS

an infinitely tall volume bordered by the GUARDRAIL, the SECRET PASSAGE, and 2 in. white gaffers tape (The OUTER WORKS includes the white gaffers tape, but does not include the GUARDRAIL or SECRET PASSAGE). It consists of a series of five (5) DEFENSES, five (5) PLATFORMS, and five (5) Shields arranged in a line across the FIELD and is designed to impeded the passage of ROBOTS and BOULDERS in to the COURTyARDS

Nothing about that indicates that the open ramp is included in the volume of the OUTER WORKS. Therefore, that space should be in the NEUTRAL ZONE.

[nuclearnerd]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Tom's proposal doesn't "turn" anything, it's currently the rules as written (aside from the "tapping" the OP is proposing).

Heh. OK, but I smell an unintended consequence of a poorly written rule. I wager they'll change it (but we will happily play the door tapping game if not).

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

Heh. OK, but I smell an unintended consequence of a poorly written rule. I wager they'll change it (but we will happily play the door tapping game if not).

Sorry, I misinterpreted, I though "this" in your post meant Tom's interpretation/the-current-rulebook-besides-tapping, implying being able to "follow each other through" the doors would be game breaking. I also think tapping is silly.

[dieDoktor]

Originally Posted by InspectorGadget1073

(You cannot be in the volume above the ramp)

Where does it say this? The manual says that:

A DEFENSE is CROSSED by a ROBOT when that ROBOT
■ starts free of contact with the DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE

Since the Drawbridge door extends down into the NEUTRAL ZONE, once you are clear of contact, you're good to cross.

[Jared Russell]

I think the referees have more than enough to keep track of this year as it is. Expecting them to reliably see ~100 millisecond long gaps in contact with a door is asking too much.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I think the referees have more than enough to keep track of this year as it is. Expecting them to reliably see ~100 millisecond long gaps in contact with a door is asking too much.

Just to add more to reinforce the above, there's a "blue box" which explains the GDC philosophy on this matter (end of section 3.1.3):

If it is unclear whether a ROBOT has satisfied the requirements for
CROSSING or REACHING a DEFENSE, the REFEREES are instructed
to not award credit. As such, DRIVE TEAMS should make it very clear
that their ROBOT has met the criteria for CROSSING or REACHING a
DEFENSE.

If it's unclear, no credit. I'm no lawyer (although I've been accused of being one in FIRST rule interpretation), but the originally-described approach seems pretty "unclear" to me.

[InspectorGadget1073]

Originally Posted by dieDoktor

Where does it say this? The manual says that:


Since the Drawbridge door extends down into the NEUTRAL ZONE, once you are clear of contact, you're good to cross.

I interpreted this since that the OUTER WORKS is infinitely tall zone and the robot cannot be in this zone and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE at the same time. I assume that the ramps are part of the OUTER WORKS also.