Flipping Rules?

[dmorewood]

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema

Haha I barely read the rest of the thread because I was scrolling through looking for a specific post but I stopped on this and laughed for a couple minutes.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by VaneRaklan

Is there anything about flipping yourself? Kind of like those RC cars that can drive whether it's right side up or upside down.

Nothing, except that it's effectively impossible to design a robot that does this well without violating the frame perimeter rules, since your wheels cannot extend past your frame perimeter.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

Nothing, except that it's effectively impossible to design a robot that does this well without violating the frame perimeter rules, since your wheels cannot extend past your frame perimeter.

You only need the wheels to extend past the top of your robot.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by george.tan

It's illegal to stop the flow of the game. Flip your own robot intentionally would be considered stop the flow of the game.

If you were still able to operate inverted or on your side, that would not stop the flow of the game. Just don't flip over the low bar.

[The_ShamWOW88]

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema

brutal....

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Leif Asher

I may be completely stupid, but is it actually against the rules to gently flip a robot to immobilize it for defense?

G24 states - Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or entanglements are not allowed.

It seems like it is against the rules, but I am too hopeful to pass up the idea completely.

Someone please clarify, thanks.

Fun fact, this rule exists because back in the day the a team went around tipping everyone else (At that time FIRST considered itself a full contact sport). So yes, it is definitely against the rules.

[Ceering]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

2. How would flipping yourself over be useful at all?
.

I would like to imagine that being able to flip over an obstacle, such as the low bar, would be an effective method to get some damage points. Of course, your robot would most likely be extremely complicated or extremely specialized for taking the outer works (I believe that is the name)

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by Ceering

I would like to imagine that being able to flip over an obstacle, such as the low bar, would be an effective method to get some damage points. Of course, your robot would most likely be extremely complicated or extremely specialized for taking the outer works (I believe that is the name)

There is a rule against flipping over the Low Bar

[Ceering]

Originally Posted by T3_1565

There is a rule against flipping over the Low Bar

Really? I was actually kind of hoping to see a team with a flipping robot. Well, there goes that idea.

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by Ceering

Really? I was actually kind of hoping to see a team with a flipping robot. Well, there goes that idea.

Flip over the rock wall

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Ceering

Really? I was actually kind of hoping to see a team with a flipping robot. Well, there goes that idea.

See Rule G45. It's ill advised to attempt. I suppose the other 4 defenses are free game to flip over, though passing over the Portcullis in this fashion probably will invoke a G12 infraction on landing or such.

[InspectorGadget1073]

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema

Lowkey savage

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

You only need the wheels to extend past the top of your robot.

For the robot to be able to drive upside-down, yes. To transition smoothly from one state to the other, like those RC cars do, not so much.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

Nothing, except that it's effectively impossible to design a robot that does this well without violating the frame perimeter rules, since your wheels cannot extend past your frame perimeter.

In the starting configuration you are correct. But, once the match starts and as long as bumpers remain legal within the listed bumper rules for the entire match, and all other Game, Robot, and other rules are followed...There is a specific extension (beyond the frame perimeter), limitation that takes over once the match starts, wherein you may extend past that frame perimeter and nothing that I have yet read (in the game rules), limits "your wheels" from being within that zone...Then again, you didn't specify "which wheels" IE: Drive wheels, boulder collector wheels, measuring wheels, DEFENSE helper wheels, tilting wheels, etc.

So, while your statement quoted above is partially true in "some robot states" like placing the robot on the field in starting configuration before the match begins. Said statement does not exactly stand anywhere true (robot to robot, or equate to "totally true" at all once the match starts.

Many 2016 FRC Robots I suspect, will have boulder collectors that use "wheels in many forms that will extend past the frame perimeter" and all must be within the allowable extension zone from frame perimeter(s).

I wanted to direct you to the proper game manual section (and numbered printed figure or example here), concerning what to look for wherein extension from frame perimeter limitations during the match is allowed. And I am very sorry I cannot at this time, but my education mentor wife took our printed copy to bed to review and compare the today released updates and she is now lights out, a teacher so she needs her rest. (She is a devoted FIRST Mentor....She even sleeps with the Game Manual!) What's more, she actually reads (and re-reads), and studies it too.

And, try as I may looking through the pdf online downloaded Game manual I cannot quickly find the actual robot rules section required at the moment (the pdf file using Adobe Reader 11 does not load the pages fast enough while scrolling through attempting to find printed figure examples to find it looking just for the examples).

So....You need to look in the Robot section, locate the figure that shows an overhead view of robot frame, robot bumpers and an area drawn around the robot which shows a dashed red line about a 15" beyond frame perimeter in the example surrounding the robot w/ bumpers. Then simply read up to understand that during the match "your wheels" (as you used in the original quote), and other robot manipulators and extensions is allowed within specific limitations, but only after the matches start. Further, this year at no time can such items extend beyond that area or limit during the entire match.

I hope that explains why I posted a correction.

Just remember, nobody here is the GDC or the FIRST approved Q&A and nothing we say here as posters is OFFICIAL (which opens tomorrow 1-13-2016 at noon....So, if you have questions...ask there starting tomorrow on the FIRST website.

http://www.firstinspires.org/resourc...nual-qa-system

Click on the Q&A section link at the website above starting at noon today and ask away.

Addition:
Found it! But, I didn't find the figure/drawing yet.

G18 ROBOTS may not extend more than 15 in. beyond their FRAME PERIMETER. Violation: FOUL. If repeated, offending ROBOT will be DISABLED.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by T3_1565

There is a rule against flipping over the Low Bar

I think you may need to add the word "completely" to that statement or quote the actual rule here such as: (I did not quote the actual rule that applies to this discussion as I cannot currently find it, but did post the rule I was looking for in a quoted post below). Of course I found it right after I posted, and I will this one for sure again, no doubt in my mind, just as soon as I hit post (it is the nature of the beast I believe since I'm already suffering from the post kickoff 4 day rules reading/discussing FRC whigout blues).

G18 ROBOTS may not extend more than 15 in. beyond their FRAME PERIMETER. Violation: FOUL. If repeated, offending ROBOT will be DISABLED.
__________________

The rule you are looking for actually states that you cannot "completely" flip/pass (or something approximating that), over the Low Bar...Meaning that your robot must pass under the Low Bar and not over it in order to traverse and damage the DEFENSE. But, that does not mean your robot cannot flip a manipulator over the low bar at all given the wording adding in the word "completely".

And, I am not saying the action would be legal in any manner at this point (since only the GDC Q&A could answer the question and they don't open the Q&A until later today. But, I wonder if a robot could attempt the following and have it be determined to be a legal action (or rather not an illegal or prohibited action)....I personally see nothing in that rule that would make it an illegal action, but...I'm not the GDC or The Deciders of game legal actions....Q&A again opens tomorrow.

Proposed actions:

A Robot collects a boulder with a boulder manipulator attached to the rear frame structure of their robot (call this manipulator the Boulder Handling hand or gripper), the robot is long, narrow, and very low (and the Team of Robot Builders fear that after their Boulder Manipulator is added to their really low long robot it may/will drop the boulders during their fast pass under the Low Bar and its additional curtain & bottom bar, so they devise the following play routine). It starts up the ramp & through the Low Bar area, the Boulder handling gripper on the rear gripping the boulder reaches over the top "Low Bar" Defense bar, and as soon as the skirting and lower bar clears the front of said robot, the gripper places (never losing control of the boulder as the robot is in full possession the entire time), the boulder on the front area of the robot, and the manipulator retracts and folds back into a low position on the robot rear section. The robot continues through to the Courtyard and scores the boulder in low goal or delivers it to a high goal specialist alliance member to shoot high. Return, rinse, repeat.

Other rules state that you must carry that boulder across maintaining a certain amount of "boulder control" and pass through to the courtyard with your boulder. And "the Robot" did not flip or travel completely over the Low Bar, only a robot manipulator and the boulder did, and I did not see any rule concerning the boulders not being able (as long as in possession by the robot, not thrown over since possession is then lost for a period of time), to pass over the bar if properly done. That robot would still pass completely under the top bar of the "Low Bar."

Now, the keys are asking the question in a much shorter version to the Q&A, that is not phrased in a "Game Strategy" manner, and getting the answers of whether that violates any game rule or not.